Posted in: Features
Posted 2017-04-23 at 02:13 by M42 Zwilling
The next hotfix, which will be out shortly, will also have some big changes to the infantry weapon meta: kinetic energy (KE) inspired damage settings. I've been collecting ammunition data for PR's factions ever since I joined the team. This will be the first stage of putting it to use.
The final implementation, which will take into account smaller differences in bullet weights and barrel lengths, will take more time. In the meantime, this will have most of the same gameplay impact.
Each weapon will now have a base damage that is typical for its caliber as before, but that damage will be set on hard data - on a typical projectile weight and muzzle velocity for that caliber. I've also made other tweaks to the damage model, such as tweaking body armor effectiveness and damage loss over distance.
In more detail:
[LIST][*] Base damage will be KE-based. This is an oversimplification, but at least it's based on hard data now. Most factions in PR have heavy enough body armor to completely stop small arms calibers from penetrating anyway - in this case internal trauma would realistically depend on KE. There is room to expand on the modifiers against unarmored targets, but that is much harder to put a number to. 5.56/5.45 will stay the baseline, at least for now - its damage will be about the same as in 1.4.7. Other calibers though be more extreme based on the KE difference compared to 5.56. Full-powered 7.62 will still be a 2-shot kill to the torso with body armor, but a one-shot without. On the other hand, 9mm will be much weaker.
[*] Faster damage loss over distance. In reality a 7.62 loses about half of its KE at 400m, and a 5.56 2/3. Previously, most rifle bullets weren't set to lose any damage until they hit 400m, with the damage lost stopping at 1000m. The distance settings for snipers were 2-3x larger. Now the damage loss will always start immediately, and cease when the round would go transonic (this tends to destabilize the bullet - later the bullet will be set to despawn completely at this point to represent that).
[*] Removal of the 'skill bonus' to damage for marksmen and sniper weapons. Previously, they had a higher base damage setting compared to to the same caliber when in a normal infantry kit's weapon. This was originally added under the reasoning that they have better training it hitting vital areas. That might make sense for a SWAT sniper, but not in engagements about engagements at several hundred meters against targets with body armor that will prevent a sniper bullet from hitting vital organs at all. Such training should also not help in damage against vehicles, but with almost 2x the base damage in some cases it definitely did in PR.
[*] Addition of a new material for the lower torso. Previously the damage modifiers for upper and lower torso (i.e. the hips/upper leg area) were the same, so shooting someone in the upper thigh would do as much damage as a chest shot without armor. Now the amount of damage is between upper torso and limbs.
[*] Adjustments to the damage modifiers against body armor. Before modifiers varied depending on the caliber. 7.62 was set to do slightly better against heavy body armor than 5.56, even though neither can penetrate level IV protection. 5.56 was losing some damage against light armor, but realistically a high velocity projectile will overcome a ballistic vest so quickly that almost no energy is lost. Now the system is all-or-nothing. A projectile will do either 1x(base damage) against body armor if it cannot penetrate, and 1.7x, the same as no armor, if it can.
[*] Kit changes to unconventional factions to account for the low-caliber damage nerf. Most submachine guns in particular got replaced with larger-caliber weapons in spawn menu kits. These were moved instead to ones that don't need firepower as much, like the engineer.[/LIST]
How these changes will change the meta:
[LIST][*]Pistol-calibers and buckshot will be worse against modern factions since they all have at least ballistic vests. They are nerfed somewhat against unarmored ones as well.
[*]Battle rifles, and with them MEC, will be buffed. A 7.62 hitting the hips/upper leg area, which as I said is not affected by body armor, will take a player down in one hit at close range (out to ~80-90m). Other than personal preference, there were not many reasons to take them before. Generally 5.56 had double the ammo, lower recoil, lower settle time, and a higher fire rate. Somewhat higher damage was the only advantage, but was too small to be worth it - 5.56 was still a 2-shot kill against the unprotected lower torso/legs.
[*]Marksmen will be buffed for the same reason.
[*]Most snipers will be nerfed against conventional forces - all 7.62 are now a 2-shot against heavy body armor even at point blank since the skill bonus is gone. Only .338 snipers like the C14 and AWM keep one-shot potential and retain it out to significant range. Marksman will be a better choice for most situations.
[*]Long-range fire will be less effective overall.
[*]Close-range combat in Vietnam and the Falklands will be extremely deadly due to the lack of body armor and abundance of full-power 7.62 rifles.[/LIST]
Obviously this will shake up the balance. Unconventional factions won't have the problem of relying on the nerfed SMGs, but we're expecting some issues elsewhere (I may have to remove some of the M14's on Vietnam for example). Feel free to tell us what you think of the changes and balance once 1.4.8 is out! :smile:
Chart:
Not including head, cause that is just as deadly as before.
[CENTER][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/XgyhLta.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/waFFnDF.png[/IMG][/CENTER]
The final implementation, which will take into account smaller differences in bullet weights and barrel lengths, will take more time. In the meantime, this will have most of the same gameplay impact.
Each weapon will now have a base damage that is typical for its caliber as before, but that damage will be set on hard data - on a typical projectile weight and muzzle velocity for that caliber. I've also made other tweaks to the damage model, such as tweaking body armor effectiveness and damage loss over distance.
In more detail:
[LIST][*] Base damage will be KE-based. This is an oversimplification, but at least it's based on hard data now. Most factions in PR have heavy enough body armor to completely stop small arms calibers from penetrating anyway - in this case internal trauma would realistically depend on KE. There is room to expand on the modifiers against unarmored targets, but that is much harder to put a number to. 5.56/5.45 will stay the baseline, at least for now - its damage will be about the same as in 1.4.7. Other calibers though be more extreme based on the KE difference compared to 5.56. Full-powered 7.62 will still be a 2-shot kill to the torso with body armor, but a one-shot without. On the other hand, 9mm will be much weaker.
[*] Faster damage loss over distance. In reality a 7.62 loses about half of its KE at 400m, and a 5.56 2/3. Previously, most rifle bullets weren't set to lose any damage until they hit 400m, with the damage lost stopping at 1000m. The distance settings for snipers were 2-3x larger. Now the damage loss will always start immediately, and cease when the round would go transonic (this tends to destabilize the bullet - later the bullet will be set to despawn completely at this point to represent that).
[*] Removal of the 'skill bonus' to damage for marksmen and sniper weapons. Previously, they had a higher base damage setting compared to to the same caliber when in a normal infantry kit's weapon. This was originally added under the reasoning that they have better training it hitting vital areas. That might make sense for a SWAT sniper, but not in engagements about engagements at several hundred meters against targets with body armor that will prevent a sniper bullet from hitting vital organs at all. Such training should also not help in damage against vehicles, but with almost 2x the base damage in some cases it definitely did in PR.
[*] Addition of a new material for the lower torso. Previously the damage modifiers for upper and lower torso (i.e. the hips/upper leg area) were the same, so shooting someone in the upper thigh would do as much damage as a chest shot without armor. Now the amount of damage is between upper torso and limbs.
[*] Adjustments to the damage modifiers against body armor. Before modifiers varied depending on the caliber. 7.62 was set to do slightly better against heavy body armor than 5.56, even though neither can penetrate level IV protection. 5.56 was losing some damage against light armor, but realistically a high velocity projectile will overcome a ballistic vest so quickly that almost no energy is lost. Now the system is all-or-nothing. A projectile will do either 1x(base damage) against body armor if it cannot penetrate, and 1.7x, the same as no armor, if it can.
[*] Kit changes to unconventional factions to account for the low-caliber damage nerf. Most submachine guns in particular got replaced with larger-caliber weapons in spawn menu kits. These were moved instead to ones that don't need firepower as much, like the engineer.[/LIST]
How these changes will change the meta:
[LIST][*]Pistol-calibers and buckshot will be worse against modern factions since they all have at least ballistic vests. They are nerfed somewhat against unarmored ones as well.
[*]Battle rifles, and with them MEC, will be buffed. A 7.62 hitting the hips/upper leg area, which as I said is not affected by body armor, will take a player down in one hit at close range (out to ~80-90m). Other than personal preference, there were not many reasons to take them before. Generally 5.56 had double the ammo, lower recoil, lower settle time, and a higher fire rate. Somewhat higher damage was the only advantage, but was too small to be worth it - 5.56 was still a 2-shot kill against the unprotected lower torso/legs.
[*]Marksmen will be buffed for the same reason.
[*]Most snipers will be nerfed against conventional forces - all 7.62 are now a 2-shot against heavy body armor even at point blank since the skill bonus is gone. Only .338 snipers like the C14 and AWM keep one-shot potential and retain it out to significant range. Marksman will be a better choice for most situations.
[*]Long-range fire will be less effective overall.
[*]Close-range combat in Vietnam and the Falklands will be extremely deadly due to the lack of body armor and abundance of full-power 7.62 rifles.[/LIST]
Obviously this will shake up the balance. Unconventional factions won't have the problem of relying on the nerfed SMGs, but we're expecting some issues elsewhere (I may have to remove some of the M14's on Vietnam for example). Feel free to tell us what you think of the changes and balance once 1.4.8 is out! :smile:
Chart:
Not including head, cause that is just as deadly as before.
[CENTER][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/XgyhLta.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/waFFnDF.png[/IMG][/CENTER]
Updated 2017-04-23 at 14:24 by [R-DEV]Mats391
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Same as Aleon and others are saying: I really do appreciate the work which is put into improving PR, and I can see that a lot of thinking was done to bring more realism to damage formula.
However, I feel confused about what exactly was the problem that this is trying to solve, and I feel anxious about its impact on gameplay balance.Posted 2017-04-24 at 19:13 by Camel_Caravan 
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I've researched it, and it appears that snipers from NATO countries would be using AP .300 win mag and AP .338 lapua mag as well as .50 BMG against adversaries with quality plate armor.
My point is, there is no possible realistic way that a NATO sniper would ever be going against a faction wearing plates and aiming for the legs because his rifle couldn't penetrate. It's not remotely realistic, and it ruins the sniper class in the game. The realistic option for in-game would be to change out all of the .308 sniper rifles on armor maps with .338. This is true for all factions, with insurgents possibly being the exception.Posted 2017-04-25 at 05:37 by Bonecrusher76
Updated 2017-04-25 at 05:47 by Bonecrusher76 -
Can this be done for tanks and apc's aswell?Posted 2017-04-25 at 11:00 by arjan
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Roll it back. These changes clearly break balance, as was mentioned before the patch was released by everyone who looked at the numbers. Now it is clear from gameplay.
My position is not complicated. With this change, MEC needs 1 less shot to kill in either the chest or pelvic hitbox. This breaks the game. Roll it back. Convert each box in your chart to "Shots to kill", add weapons next to the ammo, and it is clear you must roll back to fix balance.
The numbers speak for themselves, this should have been obvious to the dev team before.
You should have spent your time on something else. I know that sucks. Next time before you spend so much time on a project ask for feedback, from more people than you did this time.Posted 2017-04-25 at 14:05 by Paine
Updated 2017-04-25 at 14:57 by Paine -
Same view as others - I really appreciate the intent, DEV's, but I think that the old version was better for reasons noted by others in this topic.Posted 2017-04-25 at 15:23 by Mouthpiece
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I just used 2 whole sterling mags to kill one person in Falklands. Probably 2/3 of the shots hit. He is firing back multiple one shot 7.62 and I have no idea how he missed me.
Falklands medic has only one choice of weapon. If you are aiming for realism, you failed. No one's body armour can take 2 mags. Ever.
Makes it pointless. Pistols same, just useless now. Breaks the game. If you want to nerf pistols and SMG, make them spray more over long range.Posted 2017-04-25 at 16:31 by peaveyyyy
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So your damage chart is not accurate? On the chart, 5.56x45mm at 300m vs armored chest is 4 shots to kill. So is 7.62x39mm.Quote:Originally Posted by [R-DEV]M42 Zwilling
This is wrong, center mass is not a 4-hit kill. It has always taken either 2 or 3 depending on where you hit (assuming no headshot). If it takes 4, at least one hit didn't register server-side.
Would be great to go back to 2 or 3 hits, please do that.Posted 2017-04-27 at 04:32 by Paine
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The new update killed the balance on infantry fights. But it's always nice that people who don't even play the game themselves, let alone are familiar with it, make irrational updates that fuck up the game dynamics completely.
Posted 2017-04-27 at 16:38 by Volksgrenadier
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Wouldn't being able to make this change imply that he's familiar with the game? Actually I think it's physically impossible to mod a game without at least being familiar with itQuote:Originally Posted by Volksgrenadier
The new update killed the balance on infantry fights. But it's always nice that people who don't even play the game themselves, let alone are familiar with it, make irrational updates that fuck up the game dynamics completely.
Comments like this make me appreciate the patience of the devs who have to put up with these peoplePosted 2017-04-27 at 21:12 by 3===SPECTER===3
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I highly disagree with nerfing the sniper rifles. It's not like they're easy to use to begin with .
Posted 2017-04-27 at 21:33 by smith_
