v1.7.4 Where WW2 goes wrong

waldov · 2024-01-06, 09:27

With the upcoming release of the Eastern front WW2 for PR I thought it would be worth making a post addressing the main issues with the current WW2 implementation in PR, which unfortunately gets a fair bit of hate or just plain ignored on most server rotations. There's three main reasons for this IMO.

Inadequate Logistics/Transportation

On a number of WW2 maps logistics/Transportation are delayed, inadequate or non-existent making game-play both extremely frustrating and very dependent on one or maybe two squads to build FOBs instead of the usual team participation. Omaha is an obvious example but Brecourt and Carenteen are also shining examples.

1-2 logistic trucks just isn't enough. Many of the best modern maps have plentiful logistics and transport, some examples:
Beruit
RUS: 3x Trans choppers, 1x Logi, 1x Logi APC,
IDF: 1x Trans chopper, 1x Logi, 1x Logi APC, 4x Trans trucks

Kozelsk
RUS: 1x Trans chopper, 3x Logi, 1x Logi APC, 2x Trans trucks
Militia: 3x Logi, loads of techies

OP Falcon
RUS/Dutch: 1x Trans chopper, 2x Logi, 3x Trans trucks

Nuijama
RUS/Dutch: 1x Trans chopper, 2x Logi, 3x Trans trucks

now compare this to Brecourt and Carenteen with 1-2 Logis for each side and 3-4 Trans trucks and 0 Trans choppers (obviously). Being denied that mobile logistics/transport capability of helicopters is a MASSIVE handicap for WW2 factions, but not only is that drawback not compensated, these factions often have even less logistic and transport capabilities just counting trucks alone. The game play often reflects this imbalance with very stagnant, slow gameplay (and not in a milsim/tactical way).

Massive tickets counts/inadequate bleed mechanics

This one is a big killer I feel like for WW2 maps, 700-900 tickets are standard for all the 2km maps despite them being heavily infantry focused. Such numbers make sense if there's a dozen or so assets on each side like Kashan, Khamisaya etc. but it makes for absolutely grueling drawn out games in WW2 maps.

This is only compounded by inadequate bleeding mechanics. Brecourt and Omaha for example can go on indefinitely even if the attacking force absolutely botches its attack. 1 hours games are common, but not due to any back and forth engaging game play rather the necessity for one side or the other to play till it depletes every single one of its massive 700-900 ticket count. Painful.

average asset game play

WW2 Assets don't enjoy the overwhelming firewpoer, protection and thermals of modern vehicles (rightfully so) yet their numbers are limited and delays are treated the same. With the exception of Omaha where Sherman's get to dominate the map, asset gameplay is somewhat limited and simply less fun compared to modern maps where the incentive to coordinate and operate good asset squads is integral and challenging, whereas WW2 asset gameplay feels more punishing with less payoff. (Kassel is an exception with good asset play). Reduced timers and/or bumped up numbers would make assets a better utilized component in most maps.

With all that aside I still think WW2 is a great addition to PR with lots of potential. I just hope the current issues can be ironed out and that the new Eastern front update won't fall into the same pitfalls of the current maps.

puffkiller · 2024-01-06, 10:01

I agree with your point of view that there are significant issues with logistics and transportation.

Many combatants were stranded in non combat zones, unable to quickly move to the next flag, and in the end they could only walk slowly and chat.

People are not willing to choose suicide and resurrect to a new FOB

If we were to restore history, the logistics of the Soviet Union would be worse than those of the United States, and we would be stuck in a boring hour.

robert357 · 2024-01-06, 17:12

Some other fun maps usually don't have that much transport on 2k maps either. Most other maps without choppers also don't have that much logis - usually 2-3 vehicles. The difference is IN the vehicles. Don't forget that halftrucks are also a transport vehicles on WWII maps. In modern maps you have: walking -> slow and spacious trucks -> smaller but faster cars -> even faster choppers and sometimes additional transport like boats or APCs. In WWII (and for Vietcong) any alternative is usually slower. Trucks are the fastest (unless map have few Jeeps or Kubels), then halftrucks and any other option is just walk. This is fine on 2k maps. On Carentan (large layout, because it is symmetrical, which also make a difference) we have 3 trucks and 3 halftrucks for Germans (and two civ cars in town) and 4 trucks and 2 halftrucks for US. So there is plenty of transport for 2k map. However there is one small issue - respawn time. It's too long for slow transport that only advantage is MG and hard walls.

Look at Reichswald. This maps is unplayable. It have too much transport and assets for such a small map. Adding more of it on 2k maps won't solve anything and it will create more Reichswalds. Most maps layouts are "push the frontline" which need be ballanced slightly different.

Also, Kassel have good assetplay, but others maps don't? Kassel is 2x bigger than Carentan yet it doesn't have 2x more transport. Very often players are stranded on that map too in main or in the middle of nowhere. This map have same timers like on other maps for vehicles (except for halftrucks that have same as trucks) and have only 4 logis, where other maps have much more logi vehicles not to mention choppers.

So the issue is not number of transport and logi but mostly respawn times.

waldov · 2024-01-06, 18:52

I agree on the halftracks which is another issue in the transport situation I forgot to add, the fact half-tracks suck. They're slow, have less capacity and provide no logistics, yet to top it off they're treated like APCs and also need dedicated crewmen and long delays. The limited protection and negligible firepower they provide do nothing to trade off those drawbacks. It's just inferior transport with more steps.

As it stands currently they're a backup if you're all out of transport options and can be bothered grabbing a crewman kit.

You might be right that fixing halftracks alone could go a long way to fixing the transport/logistics issue.

Also Kassel has good asset play as far as Tanks, CAS, APCs go is what I meant. It definitely suffers from same issue I mentioned as other maps but even moreso.

[R-DEV]Arab · 2024-03-01, 11:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by waldov

I agree on the halftracks which is another issue in the transport situation I forgot to add, the fact half-tracks suck. They're slow, have less capacity and provide no logistics, yet to top it off they're treated like APCs and also need dedicated crewmen and long delays. The limited protection and negligible firepower they provide do nothing to trade off those drawbacks. It's just inferior transport with more steps.

As it stands currently they're a backup if you're all out of transport options and can be bothered grabbing a crewman kit.

You might be right that fixing halftracks alone could go a long way to fixing the transport/logistics issue.

Also Kassel has good asset play as far as Tanks, CAS, APCs go is what I meant. It definitely suffers from same issue I mentioned as other maps but even moreso.

For next update, half tracks will not suck because they now are faster, turning is easier - don't flip (as much at least) and the gunner cameras are properly positioned centered in accordance with the shield.

The update is pretty big and has tons of changes, features, fixes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by InfantryGamer42

I am pretty sure crew kit requirement for half truck was droped like few patches ago.

Correct. It was unintentional.

dcm1 · 2024-01-06, 19:48

Halftracks are only good as mobile kit dispensers.

InfantryGamer42 · 2024-01-21, 15:57

I am pretty sure crew kit requirement for half truck was droped like few patches ago.

Grump/Gump.45 · 2024-03-01, 10:29

Supply planes, which can also be used for recon, on the assumed anti-air safe zones from your teams side of the map and objectives, the side of the map your main is on is safest until it is not.

robert357 · 2024-03-01, 12:17

Supply planes sounds good but not as playable planes. It would be nice to have option for commander to drop supply crate on para using map, then AI plane would fly across the map to drop it.

Grump/Gump.45 · 2024-03-01, 15:03

Regular modern PR has transport choppers, sometimes up to 4. So having 2 of the 2 seater supply planes won't be taxing on amount of players fighting.

A door gun, dome or ball turret would make it awesome. Just stay in air on your side of map with crates loaded, bank so your gunner can hit woods. Retreat to an even safer area assuming enemy CAS response then checking.

So many rolls can be filled by a supply plane, including drawing MG42 fire.

Side note: more Stuka's please, I use the sound as a weapon more than fear.

2024-01-06, 09:27	#1
waldov Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 717 Cape Verde	Where WW2 goes wrong With the upcoming release of the Eastern front WW2 for PR I thought it would be worth making a post addressing the main issues with the current WW2 implementation in PR, which unfortunately gets a fair bit of hate or just plain ignored on most server rotations. There's three main reasons for this IMO. Inadequate Logistics/Transportation On a number of WW2 maps logistics/Transportation are delayed, inadequate or non-existent making game-play both extremely frustrating and very dependent on one or maybe two squads to build FOBs instead of the usual team participation. Omaha is an obvious example but Brecourt and Carenteen are also shining examples. 1-2 logistic trucks just isn't enough. Many of the best modern maps have plentiful logistics and transport, some examples: Beruit RUS: 3x Trans choppers, 1x Logi, 1x Logi APC, IDF: 1x Trans chopper, 1x Logi, 1x Logi APC, 4x Trans trucks Kozelsk RUS: 1x Trans chopper, 3x Logi, 1x Logi APC, 2x Trans trucks Militia: 3x Logi, loads of techies OP Falcon RUS/Dutch: 1x Trans chopper, 2x Logi, 3x Trans trucks Nuijama RUS/Dutch: 1x Trans chopper, 2x Logi, 3x Trans trucks now compare this to Brecourt and Carenteen with 1-2 Logis for each side and 3-4 Trans trucks and 0 Trans choppers (obviously). Being denied that mobile logistics/transport capability of helicopters is a MASSIVE handicap for WW2 factions, but not only is that drawback not compensated, these factions often have even less logistic and transport capabilities just counting trucks alone. The game play often reflects this imbalance with very stagnant, slow gameplay (and not in a milsim/tactical way). Massive tickets counts/inadequate bleed mechanics This one is a big killer I feel like for WW2 maps, 700-900 tickets are standard for all the 2km maps despite them being heavily infantry focused. Such numbers make sense if there's a dozen or so assets on each side like Kashan, Khamisaya etc. but it makes for absolutely grueling drawn out games in WW2 maps. This is only compounded by inadequate bleeding mechanics. Brecourt and Omaha for example can go on indefinitely even if the attacking force absolutely botches its attack. 1 hours games are common, but not due to any back and forth engaging game play rather the necessity for one side or the other to play till it depletes every single one of its massive 700-900 ticket count. Painful. average asset game play WW2 Assets don't enjoy the overwhelming firewpoer, protection and thermals of modern vehicles (rightfully so) yet their numbers are limited and delays are treated the same. With the exception of Omaha where Sherman's get to dominate the map, asset gameplay is somewhat limited and simply less fun compared to modern maps where the incentive to coordinate and operate good asset squads is integral and challenging, whereas WW2 asset gameplay feels more punishing with less payoff. (Kassel is an exception with good asset play). Reduced timers and/or bumped up numbers would make assets a better utilized component in most maps. With all that aside I still think WW2 is a great addition to PR with lots of potential. I just hope the current issues can be ironed out and that the new Eastern front update won't fall into the same pitfalls of the current maps.
waldov Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 717 Cape Verde
	Last edited by waldov; 2024-01-06 at 12:31..

2024-01-06, 10:01	#2
puffkiller Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 57 China	Re: Where WW2 goes wrong I agree with your point of view that there are significant issues with logistics and transportation. Many combatants were stranded in non combat zones, unable to quickly move to the next flag, and in the end they could only walk slowly and chat. People are not willing to choose suicide and resurrect to a new FOB If we were to restore history, the logistics of the Soviet Union would be worse than those of the United States, and we would be stuck in a boring hour.
puffkiller Join Date: Sep 2021 Posts: 57 China

2024-01-06, 17:12	#3
robert357 Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 223 Poland	Re: Where WW2 goes wrong Some other fun maps usually don't have that much transport on 2k maps either. Most other maps without choppers also don't have that much logis - usually 2-3 vehicles. The difference is IN the vehicles. Don't forget that halftrucks are also a transport vehicles on WWII maps. In modern maps you have: walking -> slow and spacious trucks -> smaller but faster cars -> even faster choppers and sometimes additional transport like boats or APCs. In WWII (and for Vietcong) any alternative is usually slower. Trucks are the fastest (unless map have few Jeeps or Kubels), then halftrucks and any other option is just walk. This is fine on 2k maps. On Carentan (large layout, because it is symmetrical, which also make a difference) we have 3 trucks and 3 halftrucks for Germans (and two civ cars in town) and 4 trucks and 2 halftrucks for US. So there is plenty of transport for 2k map. However there is one small issue - respawn time. It's too long for slow transport that only advantage is MG and hard walls. Look at Reichswald. This maps is unplayable. It have too much transport and assets for such a small map. Adding more of it on 2k maps won't solve anything and it will create more Reichswalds. Most maps layouts are "push the frontline" which need be ballanced slightly different. Also, Kassel have good assetplay, but others maps don't? Kassel is 2x bigger than Carentan yet it doesn't have 2x more transport. Very often players are stranded on that map too in main or in the middle of nowhere. This map have same timers like on other maps for vehicles (except for halftrucks that have same as trucks) and have only 4 logis, where other maps have much more logi vehicles not to mention choppers. So the issue is not number of transport and logi but mostly respawn times.
robert357 Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 223 Poland

2024-01-06, 18:52	#4
waldov Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 717 Cape Verde	Re: Where WW2 goes wrong I agree on the halftracks which is another issue in the transport situation I forgot to add, the fact half-tracks suck. They're slow, have less capacity and provide no logistics, yet to top it off they're treated like APCs and also need dedicated crewmen and long delays. The limited protection and negligible firepower they provide do nothing to trade off those drawbacks. It's just inferior transport with more steps. As it stands currently they're a backup if you're all out of transport options and can be bothered grabbing a crewman kit. You might be right that fixing halftracks alone could go a long way to fixing the transport/logistics issue. Also Kassel has good asset play as far as Tanks, CAS, APCs go is what I meant. It definitely suffers from same issue I mentioned as other maps but even moreso.
waldov Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 717 Cape Verde

2024-01-06, 19:48	#6
dcm1 Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 115 International	Re: Where WW2 goes wrong Halftracks are only good as mobile kit dispensers.
dcm1 Join Date: Jun 2023 Posts: 115 International

2024-01-21, 15:57	#7
InfantryGamer42 Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 493 Yugoslavia	Re: Where WW2 goes wrong I am pretty sure crew kit requirement for half truck was droped like few patches ago.

2024-03-01, 10:29	#8
Grump/Gump.45 Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 471 Ireland	Re: Where WW2 goes wrong Supply planes, which can also be used for recon, on the assumed anti-air safe zones from your teams side of the map and objectives, the side of the map your main is on is safest until it is not.
Grump/Gump.45 Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 471 Ireland

2024-03-01, 12:17	#9
robert357 Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 223 Poland	Re: Where WW2 goes wrong Supply planes sounds good but not as playable planes. It would be nice to have option for commander to drop supply crate on para using map, then AI plane would fly across the map to drop it.
robert357 Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 223 Poland

2024-03-01, 15:03	#10
Grump/Gump.45 Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 471 Ireland	Re: Where WW2 goes wrong Regular modern PR has transport choppers, sometimes up to 4. So having 2 of the 2 seater supply planes won't be taxing on amount of players fighting. A door gun, dome or ball turret would make it awesome. Just stay in air on your side of map with crates loaded, bank so your gunner can hit woods. Retreat to an even safer area assuming enemy CAS response then checking. So many rolls can be filled by a supply plane, including drawing MG42 fire. Side note: more Stuka's please, I use the sound as a weapon more than fear.
Grump/Gump.45 Join Date: Dec 2018 Posts: 471 Ireland