CIVI Issue? Change? Bug?

[crazygamelover]

I swear the intel lost for killing a civi was -10 for the longest time. Did it get changed recently? It seems unfair that intel gained for arresting a civi is greater than intel lost for killing one. That's probably why it's so easy for Blufor to reveal caches. Plus the fact that I don't think Blufor even needs to kill insurgents to gain intel, just wound them: in the past, the 2nd cache has been revealed before the scoreboard shows 50 kills for blufor (maybe that's been changed, but I honestly doubt it). It's easy for Blufor to reach the 50 kills [supposedly] required to reveal a cache, which isn't even necessary since the first cache is always revealed to them for free! All of this combined, it's no wonder Blufor has to put in virtually zero effort to reveal cache locations.

That being said, just because the cache location is known doesn't mean it's easy for Blufor to actually destroy it. IMO the devs have done a good job of providing insurgents, Taliban, etc. with the tools necessary to defend caches effectively. Civis are especially useful for building hideouts. But as of now, the ideas of civilian martyrdom, rules of engagement, and Blufor having to diligently search for hidden caches, are long dead concepts.

Sorry to get so melodramatic. Rose-tinted glasses can do that to me...

[doop-de-doo]

I might have pulled my shovel out earlier. Interesting.

[[R-DEV]​UTurista]

Originally Posted by [R-CON]Fastjack

3. Civi cars. How much Intel BLUFOR lost when one got destroyed?

-5, same as killing a civilian.


PS:
For more details you can open the file "Project Reality BF2/mods/pr/python/game/realityconfig_local.py" and see some configuration values and their descriptions. While these configurations may differ slightly from the ones used in deployment servers, regarding insurgency and civilians I believe its all the same.


=== edit ===
I fucked up. Civilians that are inside ROE (can be killed) can be close to civilians outside ROE (cannot be killed) without affecting their status. In other words, the proximity check only verifies for armed players.

1. When two civi's are close together and outside of RoE, they can stand close together and die as martyr when they got shoot?

Yes

2. When 2 civi's are close together and one of them is inside the RoE both civi's can be killed without dying as martyr?

No, one will die as a martyr the other will die as a collaborator.

[Rabbit]

tl;dr the downfall of the civilian kit started in .85 and became an over complicated mess that became less and less fun to play.

[Murphy]

Frankly speaking the Civilian kit was designed to be "anti-fun" all around, the "fun" was always subjective. Being slaughtered as a civi is no fun, but the most common interaction with blufor. Having civilians run into the line of fire is very troll and is the inverse of slaughtering civis in that the majority of the time said civilians are aiming to be martyrs. I really doubt that many civi, or rather unarmed insurgents would gladly throw their lives away by running directly into the line of fire. It's just wasteful and against human nature, so why does the game induce this type of behavior?

Yea, civi kit has been a shit show from the get go.

[Rabbit]

Yeah, it did need a change by .85 but the way they had been working it overtime has only lowered its "fun" factor and bloated it with rules.

[chrisweb89]

It's a troll kit, like murphy said. When players use it, it's impossible to realistically portray it. A civi' s ingame job should relaying/spotting intel from obviois positions, where an armed INS would just get shot, and stopping bluefor from indiscriminately shooting everything with their large weapons, but not to the point you run into fire. Basically making sure CAS is kept at bay and forcing armour/explosive to be shot at point targets not splashing off everything.

I love seeing a squad of 6 stupid civis roaming the desert on Basra and shotgunning them all, but I miss when you could use them effectively as bait for a bluefor soldier trying to arrest them and bring brought into an ambush.

[doop-de-doo]

You are walking the line of fun x realism.

Civvies were useful and fun.

[RAWSwampFox]

Good Afternoon,

Regardless of the run'n'gun blufor asset whores opinions of CIVIes are, they are very useful. Some point to the fact that in reality they just plain wouldn't do what CIVIes do in the game, wait, is this a game or reality? If it is reality, I'm not running into any line of fire. Some term CIVIes as trolls, well, again, if you just want to run'n'gun then I guess they are.

If we totally want to get "reality" into the mix, make all arrests with zip ties instead of a "beanbag" effect of a shotgun. Let's talk about that supposed "reality" shotgun and how it is not "reality". If we were going to make it more "reality", make the "beanbag" part a separate gun choice.

Now all of the above is my frustration with blufor whores and asset whores. If the only reason you want to play PR is to only play 4k asset heavy maps, you are not living in "reality" where urban warfare is a part of every war. When I squad up CIVIes, I mostly stay around the vicinity of the cache to "intel defend" the unknown cache.

It never ceases to amaze me how people never pay attention to faction or specific kit fashion choices. CIVIes NEVER have a HEADDRESS or HELMET on.

Continue on....

[Grump/Gump.45]

Originally Posted by crazygamelover

I swear the intel lost for killing a civi was -10 for the longest time. Did it get changed recently? It seems unfair that intel gained for arresting a civi is greater than intel lost for killing one. That's probably why it's so easy for Blufor to reveal caches.

Exactly right on the intel values. That should be evenly balanced in a fight for the "hearts and minds". The actions should not have different values, they should be even. If a few bad civilians wandering around getting arrested repeatedly hurts their team, then the BLUFOR killing civilians should be equally punished intel wise. It could really help deter tank from destroying roadblocks with civilians in front. It could bring new footage, new players, new things to official do in the game creating growth.

It is un-fair along with the shotgun instant arrest taking the work out of teamwork for BLUFOR, plus taking many other potential realistic situations away from Project Reality since we can't gather. Not smart to gather with shotgun instant arrest since breacher could come along with a shotgun at any moment.

It could be made to reduce stamina and intel wise everything should be balanced. Its about how the BLUFOR treat and deal with the populace in an insurgency combat setting. Treat civilians nicely, abusively, detain as needed for intel or ignored completely focusing on gathering intel from fighters.

Originally Posted by UTurista

If this happens then it is an issue, cause looking at the code it shouldn't happen.

Lots of random things that shouldn't happen, like another DEV said, something else broke it which I have heard of only in this game..
This video is rock kill then martyred as it should be- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vlSmgsLOL_c

This video is rock kill then killed for helping insurgency- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-W5g9dqfGa4

Rocks in a crowd setting are a very effective weapon. If it takes one guy 3 rocks to kill to the head imagine what 10 civilians could do. The only problem is that breacher shotgun preventing us from gathering due to instant arrest. Otherwise what is point of the rock if we shouldn't gather due to a single game function?

It would be funnier if shotgun was stamina removal, 100% realism, used either to defend against rock throwers or arrest them. Maybe encourage proper use of shotgun riot control tool as multiple headshots can kill, a single headshot from shotgun should be -1 intel and -25% health on civilian as it causes anger among populace (See the news)---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZleeM_8eTnA .

This could mean up to -8 or -13 intel per civilian killed depending on values. That would be brutal giving 3 bean bags to the face then just shoot the civilian with a rifle. Tactic effectiveness of the civilians/insurgents decide shotguns purpose.

Originally Posted by chrisweb89

It's a troll kit, like murphy said. When players use it, it's impossible to realistically portray it. A civi' s ingame job should relaying/spotting intel from obvious positions, where an armed INS would just get shot, and stopping bluefor from indiscriminately shooting everything with their large weapons.

It is very easy to represent realistically, those are just bad players doing bad things for their team in bad spots. Risking arrest. Civilians getting killed happen a few ways in war, protest crowds, massacres, human shields or being a far away dot standing in window is assumed to be a fighter. Civilians in insurgencies only do a few things. They either occupy their dwelling isolated, shoot then drop weapons then blend among civilians or protest gathering for strength of the crowd against occupiers.

We can't gather if shotgun instant arrests though, shotgun should only remove stamina. So we can shoot then drop weapons then blend among civilians while we wait for our 2 minute timer. This would require BLUFOR to remember description of clothing while civilians shield that particular guy from view, another realistic feature that could happen.

Giving fairness of chance to escape, strength in the crowd tactic, they cant arrest everyone unless they have enough people with cuffs. Plus insurgent fighters have a minigame to shoot BLUFOR chasing their walking civilian with cuffs. Shotgun already takes 3 types of ammo without actually changing ammo between bean bags, buckshot and door breaching rounds.

Originally Posted by AlonTavor

I think not many people understand that shotgun can arrest civies. That part is actually in the manual so blame's on them!

We should replace shotgun instant arrest for shotgun stamina removal. Just remove full bar requiring refill, giving arrest team time to move in. Give the work in teamwork back to the BLUFOR instead of giving it all to a breacher. This will encourage and enable willing protest crowds as there are in insurgencies IRL, since shotgun can't just mow down instant arresting people. You should only be able to arrest 1 man per civilian at a time. Want to arrest 8 before they split up? Need 8 men or 4 with good tactics, breacher stays on the runners splitting up to keep stamina low.

Originally Posted by Murphy

Frankly speaking the Civilian kit was designed to be "anti-fun" all around, the "fun" was always subjective. I really doubt that many civi, or rather unarmed insurgents would gladly throw their lives away by running directly into the line of fire. It's just wasteful and against human nature, so why does the game induce this type of behavior.

If the civilians don't flee they are there IRL, bottom line so things happen. Things could go many ways, ideally civilians 100% ignored if not helped. In Project Reality the whole civilian crowd could be there to arrest but you decide to get intel purely from killing fighters and armed vehicles. Civilians are there to detain at your convenience when intel is needed, the whole crowd is fun, tempting but not needed to be dispersed unless they are an obstacle to finding the cache. Due to rocks and nearby fighters they can be a formidable ROE obstacle.

They either occupy their dwelling isolated, shoot then drop weapons then blend among civilians, protest gathering for strength of the crowd against occupiers as eyes, ears and human shields for their armed neighbors. Simple human nature can be applied to this games logical playout.