Removal of live Cap and impact on SL/Teamwork

[UncleSmek]

Agreed. Should be reversed.

[Coalz101]

Guys, I have a better solution. Lets remove the entire cap display because clearly devs don't want us to know whats really going on. Doesn't even have a cap display in real life either, we know we captured when all the enemies are dead.

[WingWalker]

I like this "fog of war" improvement.

The change adds another element to PR making it less arcade.

It defiantly does not ruin PR just because its a little harder to tell if you are capping.

Its really getting lame constantly hearing from everyone on these forum that any change with PR at all... totally ruins their lives.

[lespyd]

I can see it from both sides. I think the question here is do we want to strive for realism versus "its a game". Or said another way, is it better to get feedback/intel in chunks, or streaming live.

As a SL and game mechanic, it's nice to have have the live feedback because I usually type "we're capping, or we need more people on the flag in chat". Having the live feedback means I can communicate that feedback to the team marginally faster. Having it in 25% chunks is fine too, just more uncertainty.

As a human, humans like certainty and higher resolution of information. So the question is will people have more enjoyment (as an SL or an objective oriented person) if they get the satisfaction of "what I am doing is moving a bar, literally, pixel by pixel). I think this is true. Maybe this is a good analogy: People get more satisfaction knowing that a car is 2 minutes away and watching a GPS tracker map of it approaching you, versus knowing a car is 2 minutes away, and it just showing up.

As an aside, Deviro brings up an interesting thought. Seeing a flag (and thus status on the map itself is interesting). I wonder if it will cause a natural behavior where opposing forces center around a point more, versus hunkering down in buildings at opposite ends of a cap radius, though thats a valid strategy to be fair. But this is probably out of scope for this feedback.

[mebel]

Originally Posted by UTurista

That was one of the goals, to remove the magic of knowing how many players are defending.
How is acceptable in this game of team-play and somewhat realism, know exactly how many players are in a given region?


Yes, coms are less accurate, which means the power/value has increased not decreased.
Now, each single infantry report helps in forming a better view of how many squads are inside the cap radius.

• Defenders now lose the magic radar (for a while), meaning the attacking squad can safely and quietly enter the flag radius, locate the enemy and kill them before they are even aware. I was wrong here, before defenders never had the magic radar. Then, this means the defenders do actually gain the magic radar, but delayed like the attackers - in a sense is more consistent.
• Attackers, now lose the magic radar (for a while), meaning the attacking squad now needs to locate the enemy and kill them instead of just knowing exactly how many they are fighting.

I would love to see this attitude in other game development teams, I mean just not listen to players constantly complaining and trying drive everything towards being faster, stronger, an endless arms-race. Maybe I'm just old and tired.

[UncleSmek]

Originally Posted by mebel

I would love to see this attitude in other game development teams, I mean just not listen to players constantly complaining and trying drive everything towards being faster, stronger, an endless arms-race. Maybe I'm just old and tired.

I think you are old and tired <3

[jenson]

The whole argument of it increasing the teamwork/communication required to cap the objective is a double edged sword. Per team, you have 1/2 good inf squads, at the best of times, the rest are just formed by leftovers. Clans tend to player together, OG players tend to fill their squads with players they recognize to make their experience more enjoyable.

This means, that the OG players of the community know that the majority of the players lack the teamwork/communication required to make the game fun and its not by changing the "magic radar" that this issue will be fixed. This is an issue thats in the core of the game, always was, and it seems it will always be.

PR is an hardcore "arcade" shooter, its in the perfect place between ARMA and the more mainstream arcade shooters. Its not as hard to learn/master as ARMA, and its not as simple as Battlefield/Insurgency, it strikes a good balance.

Adding features to make it more hardcore than it has to be is unnecessary. There are games that do it better than PR will ever be able to.

The game was in a good place a few updates ago, its had its identity and its integrity. Making changes for the sake of changing things around is redundant (If it ain't broken, don't fix it)

Its clear that the devs and the playerbase have different opinions of where this game needs to be and where its going in its future.

What i ask is, listen to the players, listen to their feedback, the people that bother coming into the forums and giving feedback and the ones that have been playing this game for a long time. Making changes to the game to appease the new influx of players that will be gone in a few months seems futile.

[Brotherscompany]

I was going to write a long multiple line angry response but I dont think its worth it, Filamu and Jenson for example gave excellent comments in a short on point way without being stolen from Spotline or being lost in the argument train that will lead to no change at the end of the day.


I will try to keep it short and write my essential stuff let other people talk if more join the conversation.

Even though I truly understand whats your goal and where you guys are coming from I still have this to say:
You are crossing a line were you are tearing the personality of PR (which is a Arcade Realistic shooter), fun and enjoyment piece by piece of the game all in the name of Good old realism. Add a function that if you are shot in arm you cant shoot your gun for realism until healed by a Medic, add a function if you are shot in the leg you cant sprint until healed by a Medic so it only punishes lonewolfs and makes people more reliant on teamwork/medics, make it so any headshot make people go Dead Dead as well as Vehicle rounds, this since gameplay can be overlooked as long as it increases Realism and dependence on teamwork.


Please absolutely correct my words if Im wrong but it looks like you DEVs still think we are playing this game with the 2012 player base which as Jenson and Filamu is absolutely pointed out is not the reality anymore . You DEVs (for your own personal reasons) dont play the game all that much, and when you do you either play with each other or the old Veterans that you still know and have fun with, that and in Assets l legitimately cant recall when l saw you or other key developing players SL randoms or doing it multiple time to understand the concern that the lost of power and a reliance on randoms brings.

Here my core concern with this change. Its all fine and daddy if I got my full SQ of Veterans like IC/MERK/JWK etc... that know what to do and fight, were the enemies are coming and wont give up, and make like this change seem like it isnt a huge deal. Its a whole different story when you have your dude that speaks half broken English, the dude that picked up the game 3 weeks ago, the dude that isnt there to fully play the game seriously and wants to chill after work and probably drops essential kits mid game are in your SQ. Engagements realistically translate to a coin flip on who is going to win player to player, and as a SL the only thing you can do is gather as much intel and make tactical decisions to get your SQ in the best position and succeed, and now its taken before your feet in the name of Realism and trust your team we are playing PR in a period of high skill gap in all players (Especially with the increase of occurrence of CH/BR/ESP/RUS SQs that dont comunicate).

I really dont want to sound like Im a absolute Elitist and everyone else is garbage (I love just being able to take in some dudes and give them the PR experience) but this is a legitimate concern to raise and maybe a lot of casual SLs that SL randoms that dont come here in the foruns can surely share

EDIT: Deviro had a interesting idea

[Brotherscompany]

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

Oh no, you cant see if you going to capture the flag instantly and can find out amount of enemies inside. Tactical depth lost! everyone run on machineguns with bayonets and stop thinking bc devs forbid that.

If you tried stopping being a Big Brain Edge Lord in your commentary and you read the what I wrote, yes there is a lost in tactical depth of being able to plan and adapt in the moment. Now its slightly translates a bit more into Kill enemy, the other options were already there before

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

The Mumble is same, the people are same, microphones too. Where the power of communication was lost?

"From my experience once you got the communication going from shy call outs to these in depth tactics thats how the real communication started, it was one of the few ways to get the team speaking/working"

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

(..) Building fobs for sustained inf flows.

Insane idea, cant believe I ever thought of that we usually walk on foot from main once we die. So basically this translates to Human waving and a higher incentive to randoms keep human waving since they lost real time information and the sense their presence is having a impact

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

SL having to rely on his squadmembers? LOL never did that

and before every clan was so welcome to noobis

you cant take flags (...) did you try to use left mouse button and shoot everyone?

So to keep it short this falls a bit under what is discussed above where if you have good and experienced SQ members this isnt much of a issue, it becomes even a bigger issue than before with the lost of control from the SL. Nothing to do with Clans not being welcoming, it translates into wanting to keep higher skilled people in my SQ like Smek does (Sry Smek but you are the best example, nothing agaisnt you, you enjoy a more serious experience) nothing but experienced players, everyone else gets immediately kicked especially someone that messes up (new players/randoms)

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

Playing as SL became harder, is it bad? it didnt become more difficult in technical aspects, deal with uncertainty

For me yes

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

And pls donate to GreenSL foundation to keep SL gamer specimen from extinction. The delay from capturing the flag amounting to maybe 60s is destroying their inhabitat

Thank you for your respect, please enjoy the game inside FreeKit SQs or inside the Asset SQs with the hypothesis that you have less willing SL since you made the SL role more exhausting/stressful than it was while playing a Video Game which the goal is to have fun

[Grump/Gump.45]

Originally Posted by Brotherscompany

.

Before this update you could see the live cap if you were attacking which gave you critical Info and tactical depth as a SL. Not only did it gave you info about what correct decision to make next, but it was pretty much realistically speaking

This is not a big deal to me. You only need to know whose favor the flag is in, this falls back to the concept of players not having patience and discipline but in different situation. Ignore the feeling and adapt. Gain confidence over the bar status by learning what is needed to cap and methodically look at it based on flag territory size (50 meter or 300 meters). This complaint applies to big cap zones clearly, because you can tell if enemy is in your smaller cap zones.

I want the time it takes to go up or down 25% to reveal whose favor it is going in, especially if it slows somebody else decision making but not mine because I adapted around it. That is fair, because you can do the same mental adaptation. This separates squad leaders by skill a bit more by who can adapt.

Its better in intervals because it doesn't reveal much information, focus on the fight. The verbal status reports change, the gameplay doesn't. Get your behinds in the edge of the cap zone. In real life if you are securing an area you visually assess it in increments realistically applying "enemy has 25% of the zone" versus "enemy has 100% of the zone" due to how many they have heavier than you for longer.

The longer you hold the enemy out of something, the more the message that its yours it sends. That bar is just a visual representation of it, know what the bar needs to move and it will move, gain confidence.

You only need to know if its in enemy favor or your favor. I do not want people knowing if there is 1 extra guy or 2 extra in cap right away, due to the pace you could guess if it was 1 or 8 guys more than you have in cap.

This also got me thinking, how many of my guys distracted by the map get killed watching the cap status bar obsessively? I want eyes on target zones 100% of time, SL should worry about the map only because everyone should be in view of him in 1 man hurt per RPG spread.