Civilian penalties not apparent enough

[dcm]

As much as I love punishing rabid civi killers. I think it's kinda fucked that they get executed for killing 5 civis.

[WingWalker]

Originally Posted by rogdozz

I've noticed lately that more and more BLUFOR players don't even care about killing civilians,

rogdozz is right.

I never hesitate to kill a civi, the penalty never has deterred me.

The intelligence points really isn't noticeable. Its there, but there is nothing telling anyone when it happens and there is no feeling of how bad it is.

The longer spawn time and the negative score (that doesn't matter) is worth stopping whatever it is the civi is doing, or just putting him down for hopping around like a moron.

The punishment would have to be that I am ista-killed when I kill a civi.

That is really the only thing people would care about.

After I walk half way across the map with a kit I've waited for I'm not going to risk killing a Civi to have to start allover again.

That would also make being a civi really interesting for game play.

Maybe have problems if it can't be limited to just small arms kits. For instance an APC couldn't just spray HE rounds allover an area to just kill one guy he saw.

Having the gunner die would basically make the CAS or Tank have to go pick him back up somewhere, and Jets would just be lost with most bombs they drop.

But maybe that would be ok if Civi became a limited kit. One tricky civi could easily cost a team a major assets and points.

I wouldn't mind it.

Originally Posted by dcm

As much as I love punishing rabid civi killers. I think it's kinda fucked that they get executed for killing 5 civis.

Is this true? I've never killed 5 in a row I guess.

[Grump/Gump.45]

Originally Posted by WingWalker

rogdozz is right.

I never hesitate to kill a civi, the penalty never has deterred me.

The intelligence points really isn't noticeable. Its there, but there is nothing telling anyone when it happens and there is no feeling of how bad it is.

More penalties and longer penalties. Aside from not allowing limited kits, spawn timer penalty, points, intel penalty. That's for individual to decide if he keeps doing it, have a report to the SL that they killed a civilian so the SL can put a stop to it. Punish the whole squad for one guys actions, we need peer pressure. If a few dumb civilians who don't listen get arrested by wandering without anybody to save them from arrest, not listening to smarter people and not using tactics can screw over the entire team. Then same needs to be for BLUFOR on a different level of screwing their team over. If the bad civilians getting arrested screw over our team giving 2 caches sooner, then BLUFOR needs to have equal team penalties along with individual.

That means no special kit requests (MG, HAT, Marksmen, Sniper, spotter, Combat engineer) for 30 minutes for whole squad for civilian kill, extending into if they leave the squad. Have a full list of penalties pop up or have it be so many people go read the manual to look. Have it punish the whole squads points, spawn timers, kit requests so peer pressure to not kill civilians kicks in. -10 intel points per civilian killed, why give BLUFOR +10 for arrest but -5 for killing civilian.

Make it even 5 points each side, 10 points is too fast. All it takes is a few new or dumb guys running around as civilians screw us over by getting arrested with 10 points, 3 civilians is 30 points and we cant control people due to their low IQ or language barrier. "How do you be civilian?" is worst question ever, they didn't even read the manual and mess up that insurgency round or every time they do it.

We cant even protect roadblocks as civilian human shields due to this lack of apparent penalties. Roadblocks can be backed up by IED, civilians, fighters, emplaced assets, civilian vehicles that cost intel. But the tank doesn't care. We need the capability to stand in front of them, that capability only comes from penalty risk. Which includes not allowing the breacher shotgun kit to instant arrest anymore, only remove stamina. Hands on arrests only assisted by shotgun to allow humorous protests of throwing rocks, countered by crowd control tactics.

Civilians have many capabilities and are very valuable. Positioning right allows you to do 10 things at once from the spot you pick in view of cache and friendly. This tactical value should be reflected by the penalties.

1.) Be bait for enemy to get killed
2.) Enemy that kills civilian will double check/hesitate to shoot armed guys
3.) Be in view of cache as the most open distraction
4.) Taunt enemy
5.) Prevent roadblocks from being blown up as human shield
6.) Allow armed friendly to cross with knife out
7.) Make enemy lose intel
8.) Provide early warning call outs

Many more specific uses of civilian, could stand in front of a car being put infront of roadblock that needs to wait 1 minute to become civilian car so enemy doesnt kill it early.

[curahee150]

Originally Posted by WingWalker

Is this true? I've never killed 5 in a row I guess.

Yes. Yes it is. Case in point where my squad and I killed cas with this feature.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_auolCJoUks


I kinda think the number of civis a blufor soldier has to kill to get executed should be lowered to 3, and the timer that resets that counter increased from 5 to 15 minutes. This will be as beneficial to blufor as it is harmful, as the psychos that harm their team by not caring about shooting civilians have their sprees cut short, thus costing their team less intel points in the long run, while still being pretty fun for civilians. Making the warning text more clear in this regard would also be a good idea.

[Grump/Gump.45]

Originally Posted by curahee150

I kinda think the number of civis a blufor soldier has to kill to get executed should be lowered to 3, and the timer that resets that counter increased from 5 to 15 minutes.

This is a big boy game, we can make it for the whole round not killing civilians, not 5 or 15 minutes. Its simple, if they dont have a weapon, gear or shemagh dont shoot. The penalties need to be for the whole squad it happened in. Peer pressure, removing liabilities from the squad, reminding the rules of engagement by SL.

If 1-5 bad civilians not even trying to escape, just there for their own fun screwing insurgent team over by getting arrested can make the cache known. Then that should be balanced by equally punishing the BLUFOR for their few bad players when they kill civilians. Its very un-balanced tool wise and un-even penalties.

Why is it when we martyr its -5 intel points but they arrest for +10, sometimes with all the work being done by one man a ranged shotgun in a game about teamwork. They have less penalty for killing civilians and more reward for arresting capability with easier tools like shotgun instant arrest. Shotgun should remove full stamina bar to assist in arrest, make them not able to run.

Shotgun un-realistically removing teamwork potential for arrests from BLUFOR, if they want civilian off the roof they need to use rope and tactics, not cheat with shotgun then not retrieve the civilian. Not realistic.

Giving all the teamwork on a crowd of civilians to one guy with a shotgun means civilians have to scatter. We cant gather crowds, meaning more aimless civilian new players screwing us over with lack of penalties.

The tactic for civilians should be strength in the crowd protected from BLUFOR rushing to arrest. The counter tactic for BLUFOR should be armor security to not let fighters peek for thermal FLIR on armor allowing freedom to arrest civilians.

That is teamwork balance determined by the team, not the games functions. Shotgun removes potential from the game for teamwork, humor, player retention and new tactics to introduce to game.

Due to this one function, civilians cant hold rock throwing protests that would require crowd control tactics and armor security for infantry to work on arresting civilians while under fire from insurgent iron sight snipers. Realism tactics.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fFLsjb_UJY

[Icaroic]

@Grump
Also, it seems the players don't know the importance of to arrest or get martyr as civilian.
Insurgency maps is getting almost predictable who is going to win (BLUFOR in majority layouts).
I believe, to balance it, we need "encourage" to play as civilians, making it worth to play as. Also more penalty to BLUFOR player when he kill them.

I'm trying to make a new post suggesting to add score points to civilian which dies as martyr and subtract it if he get arrest.
Due this game is not a "only-for-kills arcade", it could make a good difference.
Unfortunately i can't make a new post (idk why).

[WingWalker]

Originally Posted by Icaroic

@Grump
Also, it seems the players don't know the importance of to arrest or get martyr as civilian.

This is not totally true. I play martyr a lot, once the other team started seeing the negative points they usually get wise to your tricks.

Maybe 50% of the time.

Originally Posted by Icaroic

I'm trying to make a new post suggesting to add score points to civilian which dies as martyr and subtract it if he get arrest.
Due this game is not a "only-for-kills arcade", it could make a good difference.
Unfortunately i can't make a new post (idk why).

This has been talked about in other threads.

I don't know what the official thought is on this, but I think it would be nice to have a point system for martyrs.

It take more commitment and thought than just running and gunning.

[rogdozz]

Originally Posted by curahee150

I kinda think the number of civis a blufor soldier has to kill to get executed should be lowered to 3, and the timer that resets that counter increased from 5 to 15 minutes. This will be as beneficial to blufor as it is harmful, as the psychos that harm their team by not caring about shooting civilians have their sprees cut short, thus costing their team less intel points in the long run, while still being pretty fun for civilians. Making the warning text more clear in this regard would also be a good idea.

STRONGLY agree. This would have several effects and tbh almost all of them are good. Especially for vehicles, for example let's say APC kills 3 civilians, that means the gunner gets executed - APC has to RTB to pick him back up. I think that is realistic, in real life if a mission gets fucked up to the point several civilians are murdered, BLUFOR would probably pull back their APC as well to prevent further tragedy.

Also for CAS, baiting civilians would become a strong strategy, so CAS would be forced to work together closely with ground troops - only hitting select, confirmed targets. No more blindly firing a barrage of rockets at the cache, RTB, and repeat. It would make CAS gameplay more tactical imo, and yes some CAS will die due to pilot being executed, but generally CAS pilots are pretty responsible unlike your average INF or APC player so I think they will adapt.

And as I said I want that every time you kill a civilian it gives you a detailed warning message about what punishments it brings. Some indicator that tells me wether I'm martyrable as a civilian would also be a VERY welcomed mechanic, there is nothing more frustrating than dying as a civilian only to find out you were "killed for helping the insurgency"

Also, just an addition - I think these civilian changes would be greatly complemented by a civilian RKG kit - an armed kit that has only two RKG grenades and no other weapons, but from the outside looks nearly identical to a civilian. It would make Humvee gunners nervous every time they see a civilian on the side of the road, having to keep an eye on them to see if he pulls out an RKG (which takes around 2 seconds so gunner would have some time to react)

[rogdozz]

Originally Posted by Grump/Gump.45

Why is it when we martyr its -5 intel points but they arrest for +10, sometimes with all the work being done by one man a ranged shotgun in a game about teamwork. They have less penalty for killing civilians and more reward for arresting capability with easier tools like shotgun instant arrest. Shotgun should remove full stamina bar to assist in arrest, make them not able to run.

Shotgun un-realistically removing teamwork potential for arrests from BLUFOR, if they want civilian off the roof they need to use rope and tactics, not cheat with shotgun then not retrieve the civilian. Not realistic.

Giving all the teamwork on a crowd of civilians to one guy with a shotgun means civilians have to scatter. We cant gather crowds, meaning more aimless civilian new players screwing us over with lack of penalties.

The tactic for civilians should be strength in the crowd protected from BLUFOR rushing to arrest. The counter tactic for BLUFOR should be armor security to not let fighters peek for thermal FLIR on armor allowing freedom to arrest civilians.

That is teamwork balance determined by the team, not the games functions. Shotgun removes potential from the game for teamwork, humor, player retention and new tactics to introduce to game.

Due to this one function, civilians cant hold rock throwing protests that would require crowd control tactics and armor security for infantry to work on arresting civilians while under fire from insurgent iron sight snipers. Realism tactics.

I agree. I think civilians are just not strong enough in 95% of cases, only exception is when people work together very closely which is rare nowadays. I think making the teamwork a little easier by removing shotgun arrest would be a good addition. The downsides of that mechanic outweigh the upsides

[WingWalker]

Originally Posted by rogdozz

Also, just an addition - I think these civilian changes would be greatly complemented by a civilian RKG kit - an armed kit that has only two RKG grenades and no other weapons, but from the outside looks nearly identical to a civilian.

That is one problem with the civi kit, they don't look like everyone else, so there is no guessing.

Though a grenade would be a little unrealistic. Should be a pistol.

I'm not sure why the civi even exists in PR if the efforts are not more obvious, and the reward more than just the player that killed you gets -100.

It killing you after 3 would not be much of a deterrent, when I don't care about killing the civi, its a target of opportunity, I'm not out hunting civis, otherwise you don't mean to at all it just happens too quickly to think about it.

Playing as a martyr, getting one player to kill you more than once also would be very unlikely against INF. With assets, MGs, or snipers it would work more.

-100 points is nice, but I never really cared about it either as the martyr, or the one that shot the martyr.

So an immediate punishment, such as it killing you when you kill the 1st civi/martyr would be the only real deterrent.