v1.6.4 All these changes to the AR kit yet no one seems to get it right

[Coalz101]

I think Smek forgot guns like MG3 deploy on thin air and this kinds of acts for a nerf. I shouldn't be one tapped because someone decided to prone behind a hill and deploy bipod and magically stand up with that bipod deployed in thin air and spray me accurately from over 300m. There's no tactical shooters, where you can accurately shoot an ar over 300m, there is no game this is possible in, not Squad, Insurgency, Arma 3 or any other game.
I think Smek just needs to play ALL the AR/MG kits in the game to understand that some weapons such as RPK actually benefit from this (Reduce deviation time but wider spread after few shots) in my opinion especially in a close range (50-150m) insurgency setting where you'd be on a roof shooting down at people (Potentially a full squad) trying to run up to the cache.

[[R-CON]​Frontliner]

I'm going to be as cordial as I can given the passive-aggressive tone of your reply, Bastian.

Originally Posted by Bastiannn

Frontliner says he barely touched it, so it should essentially feel the same, right?

Smek was talking specifically about tap firing which are only dependant on the code lines I posted. None of these changed outside of the ADS modifier which I made better. To reiterate once again, this is not about how it feels(however well this can be perceived by a human is an entirely different story given that previously everybody would just shoot until the target is dead), this is a simple mathematical calculation which can have three outcomes:
1. worse than before(however small)
2. the very same as before
3. better than before

Originally Posted by Bastiannn

Add to that the fact that deviation settles way faster now, the only sensible conclusion that can be drawn is that the AR is even more broken now than before and it should be nerfed further accordingly, no?

Nobody was claiming that the additional firing inaccuracy was anything but a nerf. And on the flipside the reduced settle time and increased tap accuracy is most assuredly a buff.
Why are you putting words in my/our mouth?

Originally Posted by Bastiannn

I mean just look at Frontliners in game screenshot of the scoreboard where he gets 30 kills with it, disgusting and impressive! Can someone really tell me with a straight face that the AR isn't as good or even better than before with proof like that?

Just like the above, you're being dishonest about the point you're trying to make and I wonder why? Again, is lying something you would want me to do to you on the regular from now on? Is that how we're treating one another here?

Originally Posted by Bastiannn

And the community's feedback to the changes are the typical arrogant responses, like Smek, get this guy, he bases his opinion of how the AR performs now from playing the actual game with it, haha! Maybe he should try to play BF2Editor or Notepad instead, look at the numbers and see they are basically still the same and nothings changed much?

Considering Smek and I were playing yesterday I'm sure he knows that I'm not angry with him at all regardless of what his opinion is. Nor do I downplay/belittle his viewpoint. If that were the case, don't you think I wouldn't bother responding to him in earnest at all? After all this is my time off after work which I could be doing w/e. Needless to say I'm doing the same with regards to this attempt of yours at an argument as well. I'm neither scared nor offended by however mean you're trying to be, I'm judging your argumentation only - and so far I've yet to see anyone make a argument worth consideration.

And, as a fair bit of advice, let me just say that making passive-aggressive remarks and lying usually has the opposite effect of what you're trying to accomplish. You want something changed or altered? By all means, go ahead, convince me. But if you can't or won't do that, why not leave the discussion to others who are capable in doing so?

Originally Posted by Danesh_italiano

Adding overheating mechanic to AR is less worse than destroying/fucking AR deviation when firing at a moving target. For 50m+ moving targets, now you need pre aim 5s front of where the target gonna be and fire to MAYBE kill it (if the target does not go to a different direction).

Now a rifleman is more effective than AR for moving targets....

I have no idea where you're pulling this "5s(econds?!?)[in] front of the enemy" but considering that bullets in this game travel in excess of 800ms every second I can only guess that you're aiming way, wayyyy too far ahead at which point it's no wonder you're not hitting anything.
Even considering you're being wildly exaggerating with this claim then, this wouldn't be an issue with the added firing deviation but bullet travel speed which has remained unchanged for (I'd wager) a decade? - if not more. Complete bogus claim, stop wasting my time.

Originally Posted by Danesh_italiano

And yes, irl AR is one on the most OP weapon

I'm not going to debate IRL specs with someone who's never held a firearm before. Last time you were claiming machine gunners wouldn't ever stop firing because you somehow thought this would prove your argument - as if I needed more indications that your understanding of combat as a whole and firearms specifically is miniscule.

[Danesh_italiano]

Originally Posted by Frontliner

I have no idea where you're pulling this "5s(econds?!?)[in] front of the enemy" but considering that bullets in this game travel in excess of 800ms every second I can only guess that you're aiming way, wayyyy too far ahead at which point it's no wonder you're not hitting anything.
Even considering you're being wildly exaggerating with this claim then, this wouldn't be an issue with the added firing deviation but bullet travel speed which has remained unchanged for (I'd wager) a decade? - if not more. Complete bogus claim, stop wasting my time.

Need to pre aim 3~5s on front of target because you need the deviation to be GONE before you fire + bullet travel time...

Originally Posted by Frontliner

I'm not going to debate IRL specs with someone who's never held a firearm before. Last time you were claiming machine gunners wouldn't ever stop firing because you somehow thought this would prove your argument - as if I needed more indications that your understanding of combat as a whole and firearms specifically is miniscule.

I am not the gun guy (no rights/enough money to be) but in fact i have fired weapons from .22 up to 7.62 including a 7.62 weapon with bipod (but it was semi auto) and i managed to put 10 rounds on the chest from a 100m STATIC target firing super fast with ironsigh...

If i bring a video from someone firing ar with bipod and being reasonable accurate, would you revert deviation changes?!?!

--

Edit:
And you DEV/MODDER need to understand that players do not care and/or understand about numbers of settings, they just care about the final result ingame...

[[R-CON]​Frontliner]

Originally Posted by Danesh_italiano

Need to pre aim 3~5s on front of target because you need the deviation to be GONE before you fire + bullet travel time...

I'll spare you the finer details and just say that you're completely wrong on this one. Part of the redesign was to mimic IRL stability improvements gained when deploying a weapon on its bipod.
Meaning you can follow the target without incurring massive deviation penalties since the effects of the TurnDeviation subsetting was highly decreased for deployed weapons. In addition, it decays after one second flat even if you reach the cap for the setting - which can only happen when having to shift your aim around completely or you aim wildly(and I mean WILDLY) through the air for a good second or two.

In other words, one of your two issues with the new deviation system is something you literally conjured out of nothing(or was actually made more favourable for the gunner, pick your poison), am I seeing that right? And you want me to take your feedback into consideration? I'm supposed to take you serious?

Originally Posted by Danesh_italiano

I am not the gun guy (no rights/enough money to be) but in fact i have fired weapons from .22 up to 7.62 including a 7.62 weapon with bipod (but it was semi auto) and i managed to put 10 rounds on the chest from a 100m STATIC target firing super fast with ironsigh...

Hey sure thing, I'm not an expert in firearms either, I'll happily take back that statement of you not having used one yourself.

Originally Posted by Danesh_italiano

If i bring a video from someone firing ar with bipod and being reasonable accurate, would you revert deviation changes?!?!

You forget that I have my own experiences to go back to if I need to consider how I want stuff to function to better mimic IRL specs. If you can find one that gives me the necessary details as in
-Point of Aim for each shot
-Point of Impact of each shot to be able to see how the recoil shifts Point of Impact to Point of Aim
-Suifficient target distance(300-400m)
-Long, continued firing
then that'd make it possible to calculate standard deviation, deviation increase per shot and finally the deviation cap.

I doubt this exists though since would be beyond tedious to do(especially point of aim to point of impact comparisons), but if you can find it - PMs are always open.

Originally Posted by Danesh_italiano

And you DEV/MODDER need to understand that players do not care and/or understand about numbers of settings, they just care about the final result ingame...

I'm playing the game too, you know? And I'm actually quite happy with the way it works right now.

[WingWalker]

Originally Posted by Danesh_italiano

If i bring a video from someone firing ar with bipod and being reasonable accurate, would you revert deviation changes?!?!

Does that video show the front sight bouncing around the target as the shooter fires?

Does that video show the range and the size of the target?

Does that video show how many rounds actually landed on a target?

Does the video show the maintenance history of the firearm being shot?

Does the video show the ballistics information of the round it fires?

Does the video show the training and experience of the shooter?

Does that video show if the target is moving, or is it stationary?

Does that video show the level of stress in the shooters head?

Does that video show the shooter in an awkward position he has to fire in?

Does that video show the target shooting back?


I believe Frontliner is trying to represent all of these things in the things he modifies, not just if any random noob can pick up the kit and instakill anyone around like an MGsniper.


Experience matters.


Please don't quote wikipiedia and videos as replacing real experience.


You don't know what you are talking about if you have never shot under stress. The stress changes everything.

[UncleSmek]

Originally Posted by Coalz101

I think Smek forgot guns like MG3 deploy on thin air and this kinds of acts for a nerf. I shouldn't be one tapped because someone decided to prone behind a hill and deploy bipod and magically stand up with that bipod deployed in thin air and spray me accurately from over 300m. There's no tactical shooters, where you can accurately shoot an ar over 300m, there is no game this is possible in, not Squad, Insurgency, Arma 3 or any other game.
I think Smek just needs to play ALL the AR/MG kits in the game to understand that some weapons such as RPK actually benefit from this (Reduce deviation time but wider spread after few shots) in my opinion especially in a close range (50-150m) insurgency setting where you'd be on a roof shooting down at people (Potentially a full squad) trying to run up to the cache.

Man, are you kidding with me? I've played all the AR's since this patch came out, why do I feel like I need to prove it you?

Originally Posted by Frontliner

Smek was talking specifically about tap firing which are only dependant on the code lines I posted. None of these changed outside of the ADS modifier which I made better. To reiterate once again, this is not about how it feels(however well this can be perceived by a human is an entirely different story given that previously everybody would just shoot until the target is dead), this is a simple mathematical calculation which can have three outcomes:
1. worse than before(however small)
2. the very same as before
3. better than before




I have no idea where you're pulling this "5s(econds?!?)[in] front of the enemy" but considering that bullets in this game travel in excess of 800ms every second I can only guess that you're aiming way, wayyyy too far ahead at which point it's no wonder you're not hitting anything.
Even considering you're being wildly exaggerating with this claim then, this wouldn't be an issue with the added firing deviation but bullet travel speed which has remained unchanged for (I'd wager) a decade? - if not more. Complete bogus claim, stop wasting my time.

About shooting 3-5 sec infront of the enemy is standard with the latest changes due to the fact that you cant hit a moving target you need to prefire into where he is moving and let him "walk into the fire" rather than tracing him. If you try to move the mouse with the target it just gets super inaccurate.

Also, claiming that you made something "better" while easily dismissing our opinion and concern is kind of a dick move.

Originally Posted by WingWalker

Also, I was only shooting a paper target, at 25 yards, and I was laying prone with the heavy rifle on a bipod.


Please don't quote wikipiedia and videos as replacing real experience.


You don't know what you are talking about if you have never shot under stress. The stress changes everything.

Seems like you do not know what you are talking about.

[transpilot]

I think that the ar is still too op.
Make it less accurate and give more surpression effect.
Maybe add some imersion sounds

[WingWalker]

Originally Posted by UncleSmek

Now you have rendered the AR kit useless

So, out of curiosity I just tested the AR kit on Muttrah...


I was killing guys at 300m with one shot/burst. While standing. Even guys swimming in the water with just their heads at 250m...



So, WTF are you talking about?

Originally Posted by Buttermilch25

Seems like you do not know what you are talking about.

You spliced two separate posts together?

Anyway, you're attempt at being cleaver and play "gotcha" actually proved what I was saying.

The rifle was that inaccurate from the prone position on a bipod at 25yards, just shooting at paper, with no stress at all...

...no other factors that I mentioned in my second post.

So, yes, the MG would defiantly be harder to shoot well with all the factors in my 2nd post at play, and those are what should be represented.

Thank you for helping prove my point about lack of first hand experience.

[M42 Zwilling]

Weird how this change has a few PR players concerned about realism in a video game again, but it's fine. I haven't played this live yet. But after some testing offline, this feels like a step in the right direction as far as realism is concerned.

Can you be more accurate than in game under ideal conditions? Sure. But 90% of the time you fire an AR in PR, you would not be under ideal IRL conditions. That would be prone with the bipod rammed into the dirt, sandbags on the bipod legs, on a downslope so you can really lean into the gun, and firing in very short bursts. I can say an M249 bounces around a fair bit IRL when you can't lock it down, and I'm sure it's even worse with lighter ARs.

IMO the level of AR accuracy we had before might even have been optimistic for ideal IRL conditions, and you could get that kind of accuracy while standing up firing off hand in game. The overall level of accuracy now is a way better representation of what I would expect under real combat conditions.