V0.5 Class System Feedback - Page 3

Maistros · 2007-02-27, 16:50

Did any part of my suggestion include that they should operate alone?
I would operate as a special operations SQUAD, and go with at least 3 other of the same class.

Your idea to have an AR AND a shotgun in the same class is silly. Talk about overpowering. There is no way most people would use it for it's intent. It would be the new uberkit of choice...

Are you facing an enemy at a distance? Pull out your assault rifle!
Are you about to get into tight spaces? Pull out your shotgun!
Someone around the corner from you? Bang them then shotgun them in the face!
That would be more of a lonewolf kit than specops ever was or would be.

and.. there is no stealth involved in causing mayhem with a squad.. loud guns = no stealth.. come on.. read what you're saying twice.

Determined · 2007-02-27, 17:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by $kelet0r

This is my biggest problem with the Spec Ops class - the fact that everyone assumes that it should be a lone wolf class that fucks off and realistically accomplishes nothing of worth. The only lone wolf class in the game should be the sniper which should be a pick up kit anyway but that's another day's rant. The basic spawn screen options should be all squad members and all riflemen with the same Assault rifle and ammo calibre for all (the m4 and m16 are pretty similar so that's fine).

my answers are
1) the spec ops needs to have a name change just to stop these suggestions - there is little to nothing realistic of one man completely alone engaging the enemy behind enemy lines.
2) if you want stealth and infiltration join a squad and cause mayhem. The engineer can blow stuff up, the marksman can harass the enemy and the spec ops to engage at close quarters.
3) the engineers job is to blow stuff up - not repair. The reason the wrench is still in his kit is because DICE stupidly made mines indestructable in one of their patches after making the change that most people except snipers wanted.

The one area we have no specialist in is in CQC and the spec ops kit is the perfect opportunity to fill that gap with a full auto rifleman AR (suppressed?), a shotgun for room clearing as a secondary weapon instead of the pistol and flashbangs seeing as they are already in BF2 for storming rooms. I want the spec ops to be useful to a squad not a fifth wheel or lone wolf class as it is currently.

Also give your CQC guy a SA7 and a heavy AT and you have a deal.

Maxfragg · 2007-02-27, 17:50

well, would a guy with an m4 or m16 and an underbarrel shotgun be so unrealistic ?

Determined · 2007-02-27, 17:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maxfragg

well, would a guy with an m4 or m16 and an underbarrel shotgun be so unrealistic ?

Its not unrealistic, but your trying to avoid making an uber kit that everyone will whore.

fuzzhead · 2007-02-27, 18:59

well here are my thoughts on a class system overhaul:

i think engineer and rifleman ap should be combined.

Combat Engineer
1) knife
2) binoculars
3) rifle (4+1)
4) 1 x claymore (with maximum up to 8 )
5) 1 x landmine (with maximum up to 8 )
6) wrench
7) 2 x C4 (with maximum up to 2)
8 ) 1 x field dressing
Body Armor

NOTE: get rid of the shotgun variants of the engineer class, as I have given shotgun to another class.

So the combat engineer/rifleman ap is combined.

This gives this class ALOT of potential, but he must have a rifleman partner close by for ammo or stay close to an APC in order to lay down a high level of explosives. I think this would be great, as you should NOT be able to just spam landmines and claymores every where, it should encourage players to be smart and consciously get more ammo to place a deadly defense. Also realistically, all these things are quite heavy, and you shouldn't be able to carry more than 1 of each of these items. So this means it takes a longer time to setup a defense, but overall you would be able to put up a stronger defense. This class would be your new defense class, and would make defending alot more interesting!

CQB Entry Specialist

1 ) knife
2) shotgun buckshot 16 shells (for room clearing)
3) rifle (4+1)
4) 4 x frag grenade
5) 2 x breaching explosive (can use SLAM until we get another specific model)
6) 2 x flashbang / or if we can model a melee breaching tool, used to break down barriers and doors.
8 ) 1 x field dressing
Body Armor

Door Breacher/CQB Entry Specialist

Basically, in FIBUA or MOUT, there is a man that carries around a big backpack of tools, from sledge hammer, explosives, boltcutters, basically everything you can think of to gain entry to buildings.

My proposal is to create this class in place of rifleman AP. maybe eventually we can give him the real tools they use (sledge hammer would be nice for smashing down barrriers,etc) but for now you can use the tools that we have. A shotgun for room clearing, and a rifle for other engagements.

I DO NOT think the AR/shotgun combo is overpowering. Have any of you tried using the shotgun in 0.5? Cant kill anything with it? Yea, thats what I thought. A shotgun should be only used in context of room clearing, so as long as we keep the ammo count down, i dont think there is a problem with having both in one class specifically designed around CQB. The shotgun should also be able to destroy barriers with 2-3 rounds. So a hardened steel door (like in OGT) you use the breaching explosive. a small wooden door, use the melee breaching tool or the shotgun if you dont want to get to stand right now to it.

Special Operations

Now onto specops: I dont know quite what to do with this class yet. Unless its renamed or given a different role, this class will ALWAYS be the choice of noobs and vanilla loners. So it will always be the choice for hanging around non objective areas, and generally not a high level of teamwork. This is fine because you need a class that appeals to these players as well, its just a fact of life that everyone and their mother is attracted to being 'elite special forces'. So Ill have to think on what to do to give this class to give it more of a purpose. Perhaps like Maistros suggested, a compact sub machinegun that is silenced, and this role is more for sneaking around and destroying key enemy assets without being seen.

=*CLA*=StudMuffin21 · 2007-02-27, 21:52

AHEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Seems I have started the beginnings of a fire again. My apologies. I didn't mean for this to focus ONLY on Spec Ops, rather be the beginning of discussion for ALL classes. Better go get my extinguisher!

However, due to the current discussion I will for the sake of my sanity explain reasoning for the Spec Ops class suggestion.

Not ONCE did I ever suggest a lone wolf Special Forces soldier be running around. I have thought up in extreme detail how there could be a 64 man team that is so deadly it (with proper team work) would dominate any team in mere minutes. This is a thought up plan for my community (=CLA=).

Now included in this team from hell would be a special squad. This one special squad would consist of 3 Spec Ops soldiers, and one medic. No more than 4 soldiers would ever be in this squad. Ideally this squad would have two main objectives (with secondary objectives should things take a turn). This main objective would be to drop behind enemy lines quick and silently. Once their (possibly from jumping out of a helicopter and opening the parachute at 200) they would proceed to destroy enemy assets. This is the job of a Special Operations soldier. Not a Engineer. It is true that there is a class 18C (Special Operations Engineer Sergeant) who is in charge of demolitions; however, he is still primarily a Special Operations soldier completing highly secret missions, not an Engineer who carries around a wrench. Two different things. After destroying enemy assets, they would proceed to work their way back to the front lines destroying bridges and rally points, of course killing people if they can do so without being noticed. Once back at the main base, they would be inserted behind enemy lines to do it all over again.

Now a few of you had said it is the job of the Engineer to destroy stuff. Why would you ever say that??? I truly don't understand your reasoning. In real life, would you send a poor tank mechanic (or technician for those hardcore souls) with a bag of C4 and a detonator into the front lines to destroy a bridge or enemy vehicle? I highly doubt it. That is the job of an explosives expert, not an engineer. They are if any thing behind the safe zone fixing needed vehicles. Maybe the Spec Ops class should just get removed (which would be a extremely sad day for me) and have an explosives expert class substituted in with nothing different than a rifleman other than he carries 4 packs of C4 around.....

$kelet0r - I'm going to pick on you only because you are the one who said it. How can you believe it is the engineers job to blow stuff and NOT fix things?!?! He's got a freaking wrench for crying out loud! What good would a tank squad be if there is no way to repair a damaged tank? EVERY single soldier who has ever been in a tank battalion knows how to fix that tank in the heat of battle should he need to do so.

Fuzzy - I'm sorry man, but I believe that if you overhaul the Engineer class as you mentioned, then everyone and their brother will go engineer. Just my .02 on that suggestion.

So now that that's said, PLEASE suggest something on ANOTHER class from ANOTHER army! That was my original intent. Not to create yet another heated discussion on the Spec Ops class. We all have stated numerous times what we want in the Spec Ops class. At this point, I think the DEVs are going to do what they want to do.

One side note! For those who say the M16 is crap now. Try going on a empty server with just yourself and a couple of friends. Do some target practice. After doing that with another member of my community I can now get several head shot kills with the M16. you just have to know where to aim and be consistent. Also, instead of running around so much, get in the crouch position and move slowly. The less "tired" you are the better you aim.

And as always, I agree 100% with Maistros - except for Spec Ops having only a pistol!

TII · 2007-02-27, 22:21

Your ignorance of real life engineers knows no bounds, StudMuffin. There are two different types of engineers in the US Army. Combat Engineer Battalions(Sappers, 21B) are all about blowing shit up, that's all they do, they are just like regular infantry but they carry around breaching tools, land minds, dig tank traps, and set all kinds of other nasty surprises to boot. Support Engineers(21C-Z) generally are responsible for repairing and building the sh!t that the sappers blow up and other humanitarian type work. None of the engineers are mechanics like the engineer depicted in game with spanner running around fixing everything, every unit has their own maintenance section for that kind of stuff. But since we can only have so many classes, it makes since to have classes capable of multiple tasks.

=*CLA*=StudMuffin21 · 2007-02-27, 22:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by TII

Your ignorance of real life engineers knows no bounds, StudMuffin. There are two different types of engineers in the US Army. Combat Engineer Battalions(Sappers, 21B) are all about blowing shit up, that's all they do, they are just like regular infantry but they carry around breaching tools, land minds, dig tank traps, and set all kinds of other nasty surprises to boot. Support Engineers(21C-Z) generally are responsible for repairing and building the sh!t that the sappers blow up and other humanitarian type work. None of the engineers are mechanics like the engineer depicted in game with spanner running around fixing everything, every unit has their own maintenance section for that kind of stuff. But since we can only have so many classes, it makes since to have classes capable of multiple tasks.

Yes, I am very well aware of that. That's why I suggested eliminating the Spec Ops class and inserting a demolitions class (though that would be quite upsetting). I very rarely ever see those engineers fixing vehicles! Maybe once every 30 hours of play do I see a wrench being used. I see Engineers being more useful fixing vehicles than blowing stuff up. How many times do you see a tank or APC get destroyed within 10 minutes of play due to no Engineer around willing to fix it? I see it every game! It seems to me more useful to have them fixing things than blowing stuff up since they only have 1 C4 pack.

However!

It is my opinion that if people are going to continue to use the Engineer class to blow stuff up instead of Spec Ops, then the Spec Ops class (as mentioned several times before) should be removed and substituted another in its place.

=*CLA*=StudMuffin21 · 2007-02-27, 22:36

But please, I want to hear what people think of other classes. I'm tired of constantly debating between the current discussion.

Does anyone have any say about the class of other armies???

TII · 2007-02-27, 22:45

I think the best thing to do with regards to vehicles is just give the crewman the same repair speed ability as the engineer currently has. Right now, I don't know too many people who want to spend the round as engineer and being some tank crew's b!tch. About the only time it's feasible is when there is a dedicated APC squad. I agree with Fuzzhead's suggestion, both the engineer and AP Riflemen are not very enticing to play IMO, and a combo of the two would probably be much better received. I'd also like to see an entry/CQB specialist aswell.

Those of you that say a M4/12ga combo would be overpowered, I don't understand it. Using the same logic the grenadier class must be overpowered and whored by noobs too, but it clearly isn't.

2007-02-27, 16:50	#21
Maistros Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 743 United States of America Location: Cleveland, OH	Did any part of my suggestion include that they should operate alone? I would operate as a special operations SQUAD, and go with at least 3 other of the same class. Your idea to have an AR AND a shotgun in the same class is silly. Talk about overpowering. There is no way most people would use it for it's intent. It would be the new uberkit of choice... Are you facing an enemy at a distance? Pull out your assault rifle! Are you about to get into tight spaces? Pull out your shotgun! Someone around the corner from you? Bang them then shotgun them in the face! That would be more of a lonewolf kit than specops ever was or would be. and.. there is no stealth involved in causing mayhem with a squad.. loud guns = no stealth.. come on.. read what you're saying twice.

2007-02-27, 17:50	#23
Maxfragg Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 2,077 Germany Location: Frankonia, Germany	well, would a guy with an m4 or m16 and an underbarrel shotgun be so unrealistic ?

2007-02-27, 18:59	#25
fuzzhead Retired PR Developer Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 7,440 Canada Location: Vancouver Blog Entries: 10	well here are my thoughts on a class system overhaul: i think engineer and rifleman ap should be combined. Combat Engineer 1) knife 2) binoculars 3) rifle (4+1) 4) 1 x claymore (with maximum up to 8 ) 5) 1 x landmine (with maximum up to 8 ) 6) wrench 7) 2 x C4 (with maximum up to 2) 8 ) 1 x field dressing Body Armor NOTE: get rid of the shotgun variants of the engineer class, as I have given shotgun to another class. So the combat engineer/rifleman ap is combined. This gives this class ALOT of potential, but he must have a rifleman partner close by for ammo or stay close to an APC in order to lay down a high level of explosives. I think this would be great, as you should NOT be able to just spam landmines and claymores every where, it should encourage players to be smart and consciously get more ammo to place a deadly defense. Also realistically, all these things are quite heavy, and you shouldn't be able to carry more than 1 of each of these items. So this means it takes a longer time to setup a defense, but overall you would be able to put up a stronger defense. This class would be your new defense class, and would make defending alot more interesting! CQB Entry Specialist 1 ) knife 2) shotgun buckshot 16 shells (for room clearing) 3) rifle (4+1) 4) 4 x frag grenade 5) 2 x breaching explosive (can use SLAM until we get another specific model) 6) 2 x flashbang / or if we can model a melee breaching tool, used to break down barriers and doors. 8 ) 1 x field dressing Body Armor Door Breacher/CQB Entry Specialist Basically, in FIBUA or MOUT, there is a man that carries around a big backpack of tools, from sledge hammer, explosives, boltcutters, basically everything you can think of to gain entry to buildings. My proposal is to create this class in place of rifleman AP. maybe eventually we can give him the real tools they use (sledge hammer would be nice for smashing down barrriers,etc) but for now you can use the tools that we have. A shotgun for room clearing, and a rifle for other engagements. I DO NOT think the AR/shotgun combo is overpowering. Have any of you tried using the shotgun in 0.5? Cant kill anything with it? Yea, thats what I thought. A shotgun should be only used in context of room clearing, so as long as we keep the ammo count down, i dont think there is a problem with having both in one class specifically designed around CQB. The shotgun should also be able to destroy barriers with 2-3 rounds. So a hardened steel door (like in OGT) you use the breaching explosive. a small wooden door, use the melee breaching tool or the shotgun if you dont want to get to stand right now to it. Special Operations Now onto specops: I dont know quite what to do with this class yet. Unless its renamed or given a different role, this class will ALWAYS be the choice of noobs and vanilla loners. So it will always be the choice for hanging around non objective areas, and generally not a high level of teamwork. This is fine because you need a class that appeals to these players as well, its just a fact of life that everyone and their mother is attracted to being 'elite special forces'. So Ill have to think on what to do to give this class to give it more of a purpose. Perhaps like Maistros suggested, a compact sub machinegun that is silenced, and this role is more for sneaking around and destroying key enemy assets without being seen.

2007-02-27, 21:52	#26
=CLA=StudMuffin21 Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 103 Location: Pacific Northwest	AHEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Seems I have started the beginnings of a fire again. My apologies. I didn't mean for this to focus ONLY on Spec Ops, rather be the beginning of discussion for ALL classes. Better go get my extinguisher! However, due to the current discussion I will for the sake of my sanity explain reasoning for the Spec Ops class suggestion. Not ONCE did I ever suggest a lone wolf Special Forces soldier be running around. I have thought up in extreme detail how there could be a 64 man team that is so deadly it (with proper team work) would dominate any team in mere minutes. This is a thought up plan for my community (=CLA=). Now included in this team from hell would be a special squad. This one special squad would consist of 3 Spec Ops soldiers, and one medic. No more than 4 soldiers would ever be in this squad. Ideally this squad would have two main objectives (with secondary objectives should things take a turn). This main objective would be to drop behind enemy lines quick and silently. Once their (possibly from jumping out of a helicopter and opening the parachute at 200) they would proceed to destroy enemy assets. This is the job of a Special Operations soldier. Not a Engineer. It is true that there is a class 18C (Special Operations Engineer Sergeant) who is in charge of demolitions; however, he is still primarily a Special Operations soldier completing highly secret missions, not an Engineer who carries around a wrench. Two different things. After destroying enemy assets, they would proceed to work their way back to the front lines destroying bridges and rally points, of course killing people if they can do so without being noticed. Once back at the main base, they would be inserted behind enemy lines to do it all over again. Now a few of you had said it is the job of the Engineer to destroy stuff. Why would you ever say that??? I truly don't understand your reasoning. In real life, would you send a poor tank mechanic (or technician for those hardcore souls) with a bag of C4 and a detonator into the front lines to destroy a bridge or enemy vehicle? I highly doubt it. That is the job of an explosives expert, not an engineer. They are if any thing behind the safe zone fixing needed vehicles. Maybe the Spec Ops class should just get removed (which would be a extremely sad day for me) and have an explosives expert class substituted in with nothing different than a rifleman other than he carries 4 packs of C4 around..... $kelet0r - I'm going to pick on you only because you are the one who said it. How can you believe it is the engineers job to blow stuff and NOT fix things?!?! He's got a freaking wrench for crying out loud! What good would a tank squad be if there is no way to repair a damaged tank? EVERY single soldier who has ever been in a tank battalion knows how to fix that tank in the heat of battle should he need to do so. Fuzzy - I'm sorry man, but I believe that if you overhaul the Engineer class as you mentioned, then everyone and their brother will go engineer. Just my .02 on that suggestion. So now that that's said, PLEASE suggest something on ANOTHER class from ANOTHER army! That was my original intent. Not to create yet another heated discussion on the Spec Ops class. We all have stated numerous times what we want in the Spec Ops class. At this point, I think the DEVs are going to do what they want to do. One side note! For those who say the M16 is crap now. Try going on a empty server with just yourself and a couple of friends. Do some target practice. After doing that with another member of my community I can now get several head shot kills with the M16. you just have to know where to aim and be consistent. Also, instead of running around so much, get in the crouch position and move slowly. The less "tired" you are the better you aim. And as always, I agree 100% with Maistros - except for Spec Ops having only a pistol!

2007-02-27, 22:21	#27
TII Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 185 United States of America	Your ignorance of real life engineers knows no bounds, StudMuffin. There are two different types of engineers in the US Army. Combat Engineer Battalions(Sappers, 21B) are all about blowing shit up, that's all they do, they are just like regular infantry but they carry around breaching tools, land minds, dig tank traps, and set all kinds of other nasty surprises to boot. Support Engineers(21C-Z) generally are responsible for repairing and building the sh!t that the sappers blow up and other humanitarian type work. None of the engineers are mechanics like the engineer depicted in game with spanner running around fixing everything, every unit has their own maintenance section for that kind of stuff. But since we can only have so many classes, it makes since to have classes capable of multiple tasks.

2007-02-27, 22:36	#29
=CLA=StudMuffin21 Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 103 Location: Pacific Northwest	But please, I want to hear what people think of other classes. I'm tired of constantly debating between the current discussion. Does anyone have any say about the class of other armies???

2007-02-27, 22:45	#30
TII Join Date: Dec 2005 Posts: 185 United States of America	I think the best thing to do with regards to vehicles is just give the crewman the same repair speed ability as the engineer currently has. Right now, I don't know too many people who want to spend the round as engineer and being some tank crew's b!tch. About the only time it's feasible is when there is a dedicated APC squad. I agree with Fuzzhead's suggestion, both the engineer and AP Riflemen are not very enticing to play IMO, and a combo of the two would probably be much better received. I'd also like to see an entry/CQB specialist aswell. Those of you that say a M4/12ga combo would be overpowered, I don't understand it. Using the same logic the grenadier class must be overpowered and whored by noobs too, but it clearly isn't.