v0.7 Map Poll

[Mongolian_dude]

Jabal Al Burj

-Balance is achieved, without symmetry.
-Different assets allow forces to use different tactics to one another.
-Realistic engagement ranges, as its usually med-long range fighting.
-No overkill assets, like atk choppers or MBTs.
-APCs make the game extremely versatile and advanced, in terms of tactics.
-COs make a big difference, which is pure evidence of the importance of tactics, and not frags.
-Vast expanses, each containing unique and intricate features, allowing the whole map to be played on, differently each round.


...mongol...

[Alex123]

I voted
Operation Ghost Train
Al Basrah
EJOD Desert
Zatar Wetlands

Seems Operation Ghost Train needs a little more help, so here goes
- Excellent setup of rally points
- Winning or losing depends on infantry
- The vegetation makes sure wannabe Rambo's are dead meat when using planning, patience and tactics
- Nice Touches with the bomb craters, shot down planes and helos etc
- Fog suits it very good
- Great atmosphere thanks in part to the the thunderstorm you hear, makes it not so sterile like most maps

[Sgt.North]

British maps WIN

[Terror_Terror_Terror]

Originally Posted by $kelet0r

IMO Zatar Wetlands is probably the most enjoyable and realistic 0.7 map in terms of gameplay - it really brings out the best in PR. Infantry centric, helicopters vs apcs, the importance of the commander role, the long view distances, the mix of high ground and flat plains, the hard hitting g3 vs the fast firing m16.

I just don't see this. I can see how the general level is quite a nice setting but as for the game play being realistic....

How real is it to have an area where you can't enter for fear if being injured/killed by some unknown god like force. I mean really are the MEC army just gonna stand around and let the USMC invade their land? Apparently. And what about how the entire MEC team seems to spend a large part of the game congregating at the border of this zone waiting in a road to kill or be killed. And I just don't see how it's that great for infantry constantly being mown by helicopters, APCs and vans as opposed to say Fools Road which has great game play for infantry.

The other stuff is pretty much all available in other maps that have a much better game flow.

[Waaah_Wah]

Quinling or Kashan all the way!

[Grasli]

Almost all maps in PR v0.75 are good.. But here I will list some of them I like most..

Fools Road - VERY good map.. I love it.. The forest on this map is so nice.. I love this map ! =)
Bi Ming - VERY good map.. I love it in daytime.. The forest on this map is so beautiful.. I love it..
EJOD Desert - Good map! Still works very well
Operation Ghost Train - VERY good map.. It is one of the few jungle-maps that are in PR.. Please keep it! Dont do anything with it! It is such a nice map
Assault on Mestia - Good map
The Battle for Qinling - Good map
Qwai River - Good map
Sunset City - Good map
Jabal Al Burj - Good map.. It works better in v0.75 than it did before
Daqing Oilfields - Good map.. It works very well in PR actually

The maps mentioned above is the best maps in PR.. Please keep them, DONT remove them! I like these maps

[STORM-Mama]

Al Basrah is probably the best city map of any online FPS ever. It's huge, and the fact that you can enter/climb up on top of every building in the whole city makes it perfect for ambushes and unconventional tactics. Wonderful map.

[black-wolf]

1. AL Brashah: that map is just ownage.
2. Fools road: good for firefights.
3. EJOD desert 32: great urban warfare.

[Wolfe]

For someone looking for fun on a Saturday afternoon, a weapon and the ability to use it is all you really need. To that end, map popularity doesn't go much beyond that, since most maps offer quick action. Log in, have some fun, log out.

But if you're looking for something more, and if you look beneath the surface, you may start to notice certain negative design elements that make every map predictable, exploitable, and thus repetitively boring over time. When none or just one of these negative elements exist on a map (for example, Quai River), then it's enjoyed by all. But when two or more negative elements exist on a map (Zatar, Qinling), the fun factor begins to drop sharply.


Negative Design Elements:

• Rush tactics
  The ability for one side to reach the first flag before the other. One side is able to cap all of the map's flags while the other side is stuck trying to cap the first. Once all flags are capped, the dominating team sends all forces to 1 or two flags to defend, making it nearly impossible for the other side to overcome. Result: The battle is tactically over within 5-10 minutes but the map itself doesn't end for another hour depending on ticket bleed.
  
  
• Bowl terrain
  Flag areas that are surrounded by nearby high ground. Since high ground is tactically superior, it makes flag defense (lower ground) extremely difficult to defend. This effect is far worse when assault vehicles (in addition to infantry) can use the high ground.
  
  
• Open terrain
  Flag areas that are surrounded by wide open terrain, making it easy to see the enemy coming, and therefore making it easy to slaughter them upon approach.
  
  
• Vehicle saturation
  Maps that have too many vehicles and not enough infantry. Assault/defend infantry is the heart and soul of any successful engagement. There is only a max of 32 players per side and when a map has multiple tanks, apcs, jets, choppers, and various other toys, the number of actual assault/defend infantry is reduced to 1-2 squads, one of which inevitably ends up just hiding in the hills, sniping, identifying targets, and calling down jdams. When this happens, maps are reduced to vehicle vs. vehicle deathmatch while the few remaining infantry looks on or gets slaughtered in the process.
  
  
• Main base proximity
  Maps where the main base is too close to the first flag, allowing you to see the enemy in the main, target/lockon enemy vehicles in the main, or shoot the enemy as he tries to leave his main.
  
  
• Flag proximity
  Maps where flags are too close together which 1) disallows placement of rally points between flags or 2) allows multiple flags to be simultaneously attacked/defended by the same force especially if that force has armor.
  
  
• Predicable movements
  Because of the pre-set flag points and the pre-set order in which to cap them, the enemy's movements can be predicted. Certain areas of the map become hot spots where fighting always takes place, like clockwork. There is very little variation. And side from the actual fighting, very little excitement. The smaller the map, the worse the effect.

Negative design elements by map
What maps have these elements? All maps have at least one. Most maps have 2, 3, and some have all of them. The more negative elements a map has, the less enjoyable and popular it is:

7 Gates
Bowl terrain
Open terrain
Predictable movements
Comments: Not much you can do to increase the playability of this map. Basically it's a bloodbath slug match around the river fort while HAT's, LAT's, APC's, and snipers exchange blows. The temple area is not much better; unless a brit squad is already inside when it becomes cappable, it's nearly impossible to successfully capture it when the entire Chinese team is defending, spawning in 10 different places, and all of them above the advancing Brits. Counter attack does nothing for this map.

Al Kufrah Oilfield
Bowl terrain
Open terrain
Main base proximity (flag near main base)
Predictable movements
Comments: the entire map is one huge bowl; infantry try to capture the sunken flags while tanks and apcs rain down hell from the edges. Once your team's tanks are destroyed, it's 20 minutes of rape while you wait for reinforcements. During that time, the enemy cap flags right to your main.

Assault on Mestia
Bowl Terrain (towers)
Predictable movements
Comments: Nothing fun about the mec having open sights and no medics who can revive. This map usually turns into a run'n gun fest with very few places to hide rallys.

The Battle for Qinling
Bowl terrain
Open terrain
Vehicle saturation
Predictable movements
Comments: Too many vehicles, too few infantry. Flags are sea-saw captured back and forth, back and forth. Terrain is a bit dull and flags are nearly impossible to defend.

Bi Ming
Bowl terrain
Main base proximity
Predictable movements
Comments: Plays much better as a daytime map, but movements are far too predictable.

Daqing Oilfields
Main base proximity
Flag proximity
Bowl terrain
Open terrain
Predictable movements
Comments: Fast and furious. Once your rally is destroyed, 1-2 flags are lost, and nearly impossible to re-advance without being seen from your main.

EJOD Desert
Bowl terrain (flags next to mountains)
Open terrain (flags next to mains)
Main base proximity (flag next to mains)
Flag proximity (city flags)
Predictable movements
Comments: Plays better without tanks, but the APC's need to go too. This map should be infantry only.

Fools Road
Predictable movements
Well designed map, but the predictable enemy movements make it dull.

Gulf of Oman
Rush tactics
Bowl terrain
Main base proximity
Flag proximity
Predictable movements
Comments: Hope this map never comes back. Nothing but a kill fest.

Jabal Al Burj
Rush tactics (mec rush west beach w/apc: game over.)
bowl terrain (beach flags)
open terrain (usa base to beaches)
Main base proximity (usa base)
Predictable movements
Comments: Can be fun IF the mec doesn't rush west beach. If usa doesn't get both beaches right away, the map is over. With the predictability of the flag capture points, rushing the flags is super easy.

Kashan Desert
Rush tactics (hold north/south village: game over.)
bowl terrain (hills near bunker flags, south village)
Comments: Rushing north/south village ruins the map. USA can easily roll tanks from the southeaster start point, take position on the mountain east of south village, and shoot any mec infantry who try to advance. This map would play better if the only starting position was the northeaster usa main, and southwestern mec main. Get rid of those other starting points, and put those starting vehicles in the main bases.

The new Kashan 16 is probably the best infantry map to date (unless you like attack choppers and jets, in which case, you probably hate it). To me, this is what infantry combat should be: primarily infantry fights over a wide area, with coordinated ground and air transport.

Operation Ghost Train
Main base proximity
Flag proximity
Predictable movements
Comments: Fun jungle map, but has too many flags that are too close together, making enemy movements predictable.

Qwai River
Predictable movements
Comments: Probably the best map in PR. Period. Neither side has an advantage over the other in terms of location or weapons, and each flag has unique but balanced terrain.

Road to Kyongan Ni
Rush tactics
Main base proximity
Flag proximity
Predictable movements
Comments: Map is too small; PR has outgrown it.

Sunset City
Rush tactics
Main base proximity
Comments: Reducing the city area to 1 flag makes this map play much better, but the flag capture range needs to be increased. By alot.. enough to reach both bridges. The map does suffer from severe main base proximity, especially on the chinese side.

Zatar Wetlands
Rush tactics
Bowl terrain
Open terrain
Main base proximity
Fag proximity
Predictable movements
Comments: Mec spawns at west airfield, takes apcs north to hill over looking usa landing area... sets up firebase, AA, and HAT's. Game over. Rush tactics ruin this map, along with the other negative elements.



Making old maps new, fresh, & unpredictable: easily

The AAS system of flag capture is boring and predictable. You can see the enemy's objective, and they can see yours. In addition, and regardless of how many times you play the map, the objectives are always the same. Every time. Every time. Every damn time. After a while, it gets boring. But there's another way...


Random flags
When the map starts, you are given 1 or 2 random capture points somewhere on the map. It doens't have to be the bridge, dam or estate, it could be anywhere.. even in the middle of nowhere. Meanwhile, the enemy is also given 1 or 2 random capture points. Neither side can see the other side's objective. The objects might be different, they might be the same.

Eventually, 1 of 2 things will happen: Your capture objective will be the same as the enemy's capture objective (and fighting begins) OR your team/squad will cross paths with the enemy team/squad on the way to different objective (and fighting begins). This means every time you play the map, it's different. You'll fight in different places, at different times, against different forces (instead of the predictability of knowing the other team's objectives which are always the same, every map).

So imagine a map like Kashan:
You begin in the USA main, grab your tank crew, and roll out. Your first randomly selected objective is the north bridge, west of your main. In route, you're wondering: are we going to see the enemy? How many of them will there be? You constantly scan the horizon. "Do you see anything? No. You? No. Damnit, not knowning is killing me!"

Meanwhile, let's imaging you're now on the MEC side and your first randomly selected objective has two points: to secure a set of oil rigs in the east, and secure the south bunker. The team splits up, making sure it has enough armor support for both objectives. You're part of the south bunker squad and in route (just like the usa) you start to wonder: Where is the enemy? You don't know. And that's part of the fun.

As you approach south bunker, your gunner spots two infantry in the northeastern mountain. Now you have to decide: is that just an enemy recon squad or is there a full tank column behind that hill? Of course, you have no idea that the entire american team is to the northwest.

Neither side knows where the other side is, or what their objective is. You'll have to determine that for yourself or rely on recon intel. You'll then have to decide to fight, withdraw, or misdirect them.


No flags
Imagine removing all flags from a smaller map like Mestia, or Ghost Train. At the beginning, China gets to spawn anywhere on the map with temp rallys that disappear after the round starts. The brits start in their main, having no clue where the Chinese are. The patrol begins.

Perhaps add a slow bleed for the brits, which is offset by building firebases which they have to defend. As long as the firebase is up, the bleed stops. Brits are forced to defend and go on patrols. China is forced to seek out firebases and hide from the brits.


Multiple Layer Versions

64 layer: Random flags
32 layer: no flags
16 layer: infantry only (+ transport vehicles)

This would dramatically change the way existing maps are played. Instead of maps being predictable and old, they're unpredictable and exciting: you never know what to expect. And with multiple layers, server admins can easily control which maps play better as which type (Kashan might play better as random, or it may play better as no maps).

Variety.
Unpredictability.
Exciting & new, without new maps.

[Rhino]

cheers for the detailed feedback, thou some things you have said you have contradicted yourself on and for alot of the problems I do not see any real solutions or proposed ones..

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Negative Design Elements:

• Rush tactics
  The ability for one side to reach the first flag before the other. One side is able to cap all of the map's flags while the other side is stuck trying to cap the first. Once all flags are capped, the dominating team sends all forces to 1 or two flags to defend, making it nearly impossible for the other side to overcome. Result: The battle is tactically over within 5-10 minutes but the map itself doesn't end for another hour depending on ticket bleed.

• holding flags/areas to deny the enemy capture of them is a tactic many players enjoy and can bring in some good combat. Ye it dose suck some times and I agree, the enemy should not be able to get to your first flags before you can, but good clean tactics that should be done more are things like holding roads, bridges and other choke points to deny enemy moment.
  
  

  Originally Posted by Wolfe

  Bowl terrain
  Flag areas that are surrounded by nearby high ground. Since high ground is tactically superior, it makes flag defense (lower ground) extremely difficult to defend. This effect is far worse when assault vehicles (in addition to infantry) can use the high ground.

  Ye I agree, thou still some flags, one or 2 its nice to have this on for vried combat, thou some maps like qinling etc have too many of these where yes we have over done it. Although Fools road also has lots of these bowl terrain flags, the mine, the train deport, the heli air base and the village all are in a bowl where you can get onto the surrounding terrain and shoot down into the flag, so why didn't you pick that up? I'm also very confused as to why you have said the towers on AoM have the bowl terrain effect, where they are in fact both on hills and if anything are too easy to defend as a result, thou you can easily flank them which balances them out pretty well. So ye why do you class these as bowl terrain CPs?
  
  Acording to this, open flat terrain is bad (which it is), bowl terrain is bad, and flags on hills are bad, so ehhh, what do you think is the best kinda CP setup then?
  
  

  Originally Posted by Wolfe

  Open terrain
  Flag areas that are surrounded by wide open terrain, making it easy to see the enemy coming, and therefore making it easy to slaughter them upon approach.

  yep, open terrain = boring terrain thou it is good to have open terrain now and then but Kufrah has too much of it.
  
  

  Originally Posted by Wolfe

  Vehicle saturation
  Maps that have too many vehicles and not enough infantry. Assault/defend infantry is the heart and soul of any successful engagement. There is only a max of 32 players per side and when a map has multiple tanks, apcs, jets, choppers, and various other toys, the number of actual assault/defend infantry is reduced to 1-2 squads, one of which inevitably ends up just hiding in the hills, sniping, identifying targets, and calling down jdams. When this happens, maps are reduced to vehicle vs. vehicle deathmatch while the few remaining infantry looks on or gets slaughtered in the process.

  ye, main problem here is that we have no way to control how many assests are spawned as to player pop, as if the server is only 1/2 or 3/4 full, a map like Qinling 64p which its assets setup has been designed for 64 players, and its not all the time a server has got 64ps on it. We may look into some way of fixing this in the future but doubt its easily possible.
  
  

  Originally Posted by Wolfe

  Main base proximity
  Maps where the main base is too close to the first flag, allowing you to see the enemy in the main, target/lockon enemy vehicles in the main, or shoot the enemy as he tries to leave his main.

  ye, some players just trying to flank the flag near the main are drawn into base raping in just defense of there flank.
  
  Also why have you not classed fools road with this when it has the village right next to the brit main?
  
  

  Originally Posted by Wolfe

  Flag proximity
  Maps where flags are too close together which 1) disallows placement of rally points between flags or 2) allows multiple flags to be simultaneously attacked/defended by the same force especially if that force has armor

  Sometimes its good to have flags close apart, but in the case of EJOD and most cases it turns into spam fests epically if both flags have bunkers set up on them etc
  
  

  Originally Posted by Wolfe

  Predicable movements
  Because of the pre-set flag points and the pre-set order in which to cap them, the enemy's movements can be predicted. Certain areas of the map become hot spots where fighting always takes place, like clockwork. There is very little variation. And side from the actual fighting, very little excitement. The smaller the map, the worse the effect.

ye, either game mode changes or a new game mode would be the only real way to sort this kinda issue out.

[QUOTE=Wolfe;670268]Negative design elements by map
What maps have these elements? All maps have at least one. Most maps have 2, 3, and some have all of them. The more negative elements a map has, the less enjoyable and popular it is:

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Assault on Mestia
Bowl Terrain (towers)
Predictable movements
Comments: Nothing fun about the mec having open sights and no medics who can revive. This map usually turns into a run'n gun fest with very few places to hide rallys.

you mean the brits? I think the map can be quite alot of fun, and ye for the most part it is a run'n gun fest but it can bring in alot of tactical and teamwork elements into the map.

Originally Posted by Wolfe

The Battle for Qinling
Bowl terrain
Open terrain
Vehicle saturation
Predictable movements
Comments: Too many vehicles, too few infantry. Flags are sea-saw captured back and forth, back and forth. Terrain is a bit dull and flags are nearly impossible to defend.

how do you mean the terrain is dull? just interested to see what you think

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Qwai River
Predictable movements
Comments: Probably the best map in PR. Period. Neither side has an advantage over the other in terms of location or weapons, and each flag has unique but balanced terrain.

Why haven't you classed this map with rush tactics? one of the biggest most common tactics on this map which can easily let PLA win is to rush the mine flag with a jeep full of guys, then hold it and wait for the tanks to turn up and help you support it? Can remember DP telling me the other day about a game he had like that, where his whole team just sat on that flag, where one squad went around the rear flags just capping them all upto the mine

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Making old maps new, fresh, & unpredictable: easily

The AAS system of flag capture is boring and predictable. You can see the enemy's objective, and they can see yours. In addition, and regardless of how many times you play the map, the objectives are always the same. Every time. Every time. Every damn time. After a while, it gets boring. But there's another way...


Random flags
When the map starts, you are given 1 or 2 random capture points somewhere on the map. It doens't have to be the bridge, dam or estate, it could be anywhere.. even in the middle of nowhere. Meanwhile, the enemy is also given 1 or 2 random capture points. Neither side can see the other side's objective. The objects might be different, they might be the same.

Eventually, 1 of 2 things will happen: Your capture objective will be the same as the enemy's capture objective (and fighting begins) OR your team/squad will cross paths with the enemy team/squad on the way to different objective (and fighting begins). This means every time you play the map, it's different. You'll fight in different places, at different times, against different forces (instead of the predictability of knowing the other team's objectives which are always the same, every map).

So imagine a map like Kashan:
You begin in the USA main, grab your tank crew, and roll out. Your first randomly selected objective is the north bridge, west of your main. In route, you're wondering: are we going to see the enemy? How many of them will there be? You constantly scan the horizon. "Do you see anything? No. You? No. Damnit, not knowning is killing me!"

Meanwhile, let's imaging you're now on the MEC side and your first randomly selected objective has two points: to secure a set of oil rigs in the east, and secure the south bunker. The team splits up, making sure it has enough armor support for both objectives. You're part of the south bunker squad and in route (just like the usa) you start to wonder: Where is the enemy? You don't know. And that's part of the fun.

As you approach south bunker, your gunner spots two infantry in the northeastern mountain. Now you have to decide: is that just an enemy recon squad or is there a full tank column behind that hill? Of course, you have no idea that the entire american team is to the northwest.

Neither side knows where the other side is, or what their objective is. You'll have to determine that for yourself or rely on recon intel. You'll then have to decide to fight, withdraw, or misdirect them.


No flags
Imagine removing all flags from a smaller map like Mestia, or Ghost Train. At the beginning, China gets to spawn anywhere on the map with temp rallys that disappear after the round starts. The brits start in their main, having no clue where the Chinese are. The patrol begins.

Perhaps add a slow bleed for the brits, which is offset by building firebases which they have to defend. As long as the firebase is up, the bleed stops. Brits are forced to defend and go on patrols. China is forced to seek out firebases and hide from the brits.


Multiple Layer Versions

64 layer: Random flags
32 layer: no flags
16 layer: infantry only (+ transport vehicles)

This would dramatically change the way existing maps are played. Instead of maps being predictable and old, they're unpredictable and exciting: you never know what to expect. And with multiple layers, server admins can easily control which maps play better as which type (Kashan might play better as random, or it may play better as no maps).

Variety.
Unpredictability.
Exciting & new, without new maps.

your ideas for game modes are good, but if you have no flags there is no intensive in a player to go outside his main and the last thing you guys want from what your telling me is a pure frag fest, team death match game mode which it would become?