Decreased accuracy with other teams weapons? - Page 4

[LTC] Gunther.S [4SFG] · 2007-06-18, 13:55

I think this idea is pointless. It is WAY to complicated and unrealistic in some cases. For example, when a marine picks up an AK47. And who's to say that insurgans have never fired off high end weapons?

Not to mention, it isnt all that complicated to bring your stock up to your shoulder, look down the sights and shoot. Yea he wont have that fine tuned training down. But it doesnt take a genius to shoot a .50 cal sniper rifle.

Long Bow · 2007-06-18, 14:17

First I am not trying to trump anyones knowledge here and MrD you have given me a good deal of insite into this topic.

I have used a variety of firearms and was fairly accurate with them. My experience is limited to 100yds approx and mostly with iron sights. MrD I believe is bang on with the optics argurment. I haven't used optics except for a few occasions, I used iron sights for the rest. With a little bit of time I was able to get comfortable with the different rifles. The basic principles of shooting (as I know them) allowed me to hit a man sized target at 100yds while shooting off-hand and iron sights. Now I have never shot at ranges past 100yds in combat so I can't really comment on that. My point is that with iron sights someone with some firearm experience could adjust to a new rifle to deal with threats at close range (100m) past that I don't have enough knowledge to comment.

I think the argument here is too complex to implement properly in game. For the most part a soldier wouldn't be picking up another rifle IRL. It happens but not on mass like it can in PR. A trained soldier however would probably be able to adjust to a picked up rifle if needed. Where an insurgent with no formal training might struggle. There could of course be a seasoned veteran insurgent who would adjust quickly. I could go on but I think there are so many variables here ontop of the optics issues already stated that a big paint brush approach would overlook some aspects. I really don't have a good suggestion on how to change things to make it realistic. If you don't allow picking up enemy kits that would not be realistic for the insurgents.

MrD · 2007-06-18, 15:09

We should still allow picking up and using of other teams weapons.

The distraction/diversion fire of one firing can confuse an enemy and maybe stop them firing on a hidden soldier with their teams weapon.

On Bi Minge I've found frequently that ambushing enemy as they go by from the rear with their own teams weapon frequently lets me wiped out whole squads, they don't look around thinking it is one of their squad firing past them

It is probably hard coded, but if it wasn't, changing your deviation midgame to that of insurgents deviation when picking up and using an enemy weapon would be good.

As a side note, over in the hotzones, insurgent commanders have been reported to have been telling their soldiers on the ground to only attack brit and US convoys within a 50m radius as they appreciate the low accuracy and low training of their troops handling those weapons and know they will lose every single time with limited or no allied casualties outside this range.

My brother has reported in the second gulf war that he's been stood up beside his landie and had iraqi troops stood up firing their AK's at 400m from him and the rounds weren't coming anywhere near him. With our SA80 series rifles being zeroed in at that 400m range, you can see how it becomes a one sided fight!

Dunehunter · 2007-06-18, 15:14

Don't the Coalition forces in Iraq use a lot of AKs?

Long Bow · 2007-06-18, 15:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by [R-PUB]MrD

As a side note, over in the hotzones, insurgent commanders have been reported to have been telling their soldiers on the ground to only attack brit and US convoys within a 50m radius as they appreciate the low accuracy and low training of their troops handling those weapons and know they will lose every single time with limited or no allied casualties outside this range.

My brother has reported in the second gulf war that he's been stood up beside his landie and had iraqi troops stood up firing their AK's at 400m from him and the rounds weren't coming anywhere near him. With our SA80 series rifles being zeroed in at that 400m range, you can see how it becomes a one sided fight!

400m with an AK!? 400m without any optics would be difficult enough let alone using an AK-47. I can appreciate the limited ranges needed for a succesfull attack. Even at close range you can have trouble hitting things if your under fire. I have seen a video of two guys in a store shooting handguns at each other from either side of a counter. No one was hit

MrD · 2007-06-18, 17:17

Handguns require so much skill and training to hit things that they become useless in the wrong peoples hands.

In a street where I lived before, two gangs drove cars at each other, got out at 30m range and all started firing pistols. The only person to get hit was a teenage girl in a second storey window to one side of the street who was hit in the head and died.

I've fired Browning 9mmHP on the ranges at 30m and could only hit a full sized target 2/8 times. Our marksman trained supervisor could only hit it 4/10 and he owned a customised Browning and attended competition shoots. It ain't like Hollywood, you really need to be in the same room as someone to hit them, outdoors it's a bit vague! Pistols are a CQB weapon and a last resort!

Stood up with an L85 with it resting on something, a stationary target at 400m is possible. Take your time, breathe properly and firmly pull the trigger and you should hit what you are aiming at. Stood up without a rest and 100m max really. Prone position and 400m is easy.

HellDuke · 2007-06-18, 17:59

Well as for pistols on that i know a few things couse that's the only thing i've actualy fired. I fully agree that it's a madhouse to hit anything. My accuracy was 4/15 firing a full clip (the recoil was too much for me then so 1 shot barely scratched the target and that could make the count 3/15 (that's like 20% !!!) though i don't know the range becuase i wasn't told then). It's a sidearm meant to use if you are out of ammo and/or if you are unable to use the main firing weapon.

MrD · 2007-06-18, 18:10

The first time I fired the Browning I had the recoil swish it past my head almost hitting my ear

Then I have big hands and ended up with a V shaped gouge between thumb and finger where the hammer had kept hitting. I had blood running all down onto my forearm, haha.

mammikoura · 2007-06-18, 20:26

yeah pistols ain't that good at long ranges. I've only shot with a pistol from something like 15m, and even then I really had to aim if I wanted to hit a 1m x 0.5m target. I can get 7/7 into the target if I take my time, but that's just from 15m. Double the distance and I'd probably get like 1 or 2 into the target.

And I'm not really that good with rifles either, 7.62mm hunting rifle (with 2x scope) and I can hit the same target (1m x 0.5m) maybe 2 or 3 out of 5. That's while standing up without any kind of support. Never tried shooting from the prone position, but I'll have to do that sometime.

So yeah, probably something like 50m would be the max accurate range for someone who doesn't have too much experience with weapons.

HellDuke · 2007-06-19, 08:19

Fired an air rifle (like the one used in sports) and used the iron sights. The standing position makes it a bit harder to aim but you won't necisaraly have to aim higher or lower, crouched is better but you gotta work out the best way to do it. Prone is nice, full stability and so on, but you gotta aim higher then and in some cases it's just anoying.

2007-06-18, 15:09	#33
MrD Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,399 Saudi Arabia Location: Ar Riyadh	We should still allow picking up and using of other teams weapons. The distraction/diversion fire of one firing can confuse an enemy and maybe stop them firing on a hidden soldier with their teams weapon. On Bi Minge I've found frequently that ambushing enemy as they go by from the rear with their own teams weapon frequently lets me wiped out whole squads, they don't look around thinking it is one of their squad firing past them It is probably hard coded, but if it wasn't, changing your deviation midgame to that of insurgents deviation when picking up and using an enemy weapon would be good. As a side note, over in the hotzones, insurgent commanders have been reported to have been telling their soldiers on the ground to only attack brit and US convoys within a 50m radius as they appreciate the low accuracy and low training of their troops handling those weapons and know they will lose every single time with limited or no allied casualties outside this range. My brother has reported in the second gulf war that he's been stood up beside his landie and had iraqi troops stood up firing their AK's at 400m from him and the rounds weren't coming anywhere near him. With our SA80 series rifles being zeroed in at that 400m range, you can see how it becomes a one sided fight!
	[R-MOD]Mongolian Dude: AH man, sarcasm is so hard to get across the web, even if we are both british [R-DEV]Jaymz: That has to be...the most epic response to a welcome thread I have ever seen. [R-CON]Mr.D ladies and gentlemen!

2007-06-18, 17:17	#36
MrD Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,399 Saudi Arabia Location: Ar Riyadh	Handguns require so much skill and training to hit things that they become useless in the wrong peoples hands. In a street where I lived before, two gangs drove cars at each other, got out at 30m range and all started firing pistols. The only person to get hit was a teenage girl in a second storey window to one side of the street who was hit in the head and died. I've fired Browning 9mmHP on the ranges at 30m and could only hit a full sized target 2/8 times. Our marksman trained supervisor could only hit it 4/10 and he owned a customised Browning and attended competition shoots. It ain't like Hollywood, you really need to be in the same room as someone to hit them, outdoors it's a bit vague! Pistols are a CQB weapon and a last resort! Stood up with an L85 with it resting on something, a stationary target at 400m is possible. Take your time, breathe properly and firmly pull the trigger and you should hit what you are aiming at. Stood up without a rest and 100m max really. Prone position and 400m is easy.
	[R-MOD]Mongolian Dude: AH man, sarcasm is so hard to get across the web, even if we are both british [R-DEV]Jaymz: That has to be...the most epic response to a welcome thread I have ever seen. [R-CON]Mr.D ladies and gentlemen!

2007-06-18, 18:10	#38
MrD Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 3,399 Saudi Arabia Location: Ar Riyadh	The first time I fired the Browning I had the recoil swish it past my head almost hitting my ear Then I have big hands and ended up with a V shaped gouge between thumb and finger where the hammer had kept hitting. I had blood running all down onto my forearm, haha.
	[R-MOD]Mongolian Dude: AH man, sarcasm is so hard to get across the web, even if we are both british [R-DEV]Jaymz: That has to be...the most epic response to a welcome thread I have ever seen. [R-CON]Mr.D ladies and gentlemen!

2007-06-18, 20:26	#39
mammikoura Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,151	yeah pistols ain't that good at long ranges. I've only shot with a pistol from something like 15m, and even then I really had to aim if I wanted to hit a 1m x 0.5m target. I can get 7/7 into the target if I take my time, but that's just from 15m. Double the distance and I'd probably get like 1 or 2 into the target. And I'm not really that good with rifles either, 7.62mm hunting rifle (with 2x scope) and I can hit the same target (1m x 0.5m) maybe 2 or 3 out of 5. That's while standing up without any kind of support. Never tried shooting from the prone position, but I'll have to do that sometime. So yeah, probably something like 50m would be the max accurate range for someone who doesn't have too much experience with weapons.
mammikoura Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 1,151

2007-06-18, 13:55	#31
[LTC] Gunther.S [4SFG] Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 97 Afghanistan	I think this idea is pointless. It is WAY to complicated and unrealistic in some cases. For example, when a marine picks up an AK47. And who's to say that insurgans have never fired off high end weapons? Not to mention, it isnt all that complicated to bring your stock up to your shoulder, look down the sights and shoot. Yea he wont have that fine tuned training down. But it doesnt take a genius to shoot a .50 cal sniper rifle.

2007-06-18, 14:17	#32
Long Bow Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,100 Location: Canada	First I am not trying to trump anyones knowledge here and MrD you have given me a good deal of insite into this topic. I have used a variety of firearms and was fairly accurate with them. My experience is limited to 100yds approx and mostly with iron sights. MrD I believe is bang on with the optics argurment. I haven't used optics except for a few occasions, I used iron sights for the rest. With a little bit of time I was able to get comfortable with the different rifles. The basic principles of shooting (as I know them) allowed me to hit a man sized target at 100yds while shooting off-hand and iron sights. Now I have never shot at ranges past 100yds in combat so I can't really comment on that. My point is that with iron sights someone with some firearm experience could adjust to a new rifle to deal with threats at close range (100m) past that I don't have enough knowledge to comment. I think the argument here is too complex to implement properly in game. For the most part a soldier wouldn't be picking up another rifle IRL. It happens but not on mass like it can in PR. A trained soldier however would probably be able to adjust to a picked up rifle if needed. Where an insurgent with no formal training might struggle. There could of course be a seasoned veteran insurgent who would adjust quickly. I could go on but I think there are so many variables here ontop of the optics issues already stated that a big paint brush approach would overlook some aspects. I really don't have a good suggestion on how to change things to make it realistic. If you don't allow picking up enemy kits that would not be realistic for the insurgents.

2007-06-18, 15:14	#34
Dunehunter Retired Moderator Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 12,101 Belgium Location: Ghent Blog Entries: 2	Don't the Coalition forces in Iraq use a lot of AKs?

2007-06-18, 17:59	#37
HellDuke Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 621 Lithuania Location: Vilnius, 26 kilometres south of Europe center	Well as for pistols on that i know a few things couse that's the only thing i've actualy fired. I fully agree that it's a madhouse to hit anything. My accuracy was 4/15 firing a full clip (the recoil was too much for me then so 1 shot barely scratched the target and that could make the count 3/15 (that's like 20% !!!) though i don't know the range becuase i wasn't told then). It's a sidearm meant to use if you are out of ammo and/or if you are unable to use the main firing weapon.

2007-06-19, 08:19	#40
HellDuke Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 621 Lithuania Location: Vilnius, 26 kilometres south of Europe center	Fired an air rifle (like the one used in sports) and used the iron sights. The standing position makes it a bit harder to aim but you won't necisaraly have to aim higher or lower, crouched is better but you gotta work out the best way to do it. Prone is nice, full stability and so on, but you gotta aim higher then and in some cases it's just anoying.