v1.7.3 Bleed Effect is Impairing and Detrimental to gameplay

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

Originally Posted by VTRaptor

Wdym I don't get it? Current bleed is simply put less obstructive and in practice fighting on is easier, but for some reason not for dcm, who has to use some weird binds for whatever reason. I stand by the skill issue argument, because this community is small enough for me to know all the skilled players, most of them in person. This is an example of bad workman blaming his tools. Would he improve if deviation was removed as he'd like? He even calls kit limitations "bullshit and flaws" here... If DEVs even considered these as such, I'd be worried.

And ask Suchar who is a DEV if I am kissing his ass.

and I'm done reading these walls of texts, even comming from the frontliner at this point xD

If that's how you feel about it then it was a failure from a design perspective. But it's only a failure in that regard then because in this rare instance, very rare indeed, they backtracked somewhat and nerfed it. I guess then leaving nobody really happy.

It's clear from news items and developer comments elsewhere that the intention was the opposite. To do what I said. The fact that you are supposedly able to mitigate or even overcome those effects compared to the old red system despite in your own words ragequitting due to the pre-nerf version is something that I'll not comment on. As I said, good for you, maybe you're more skilled than him.

Originally Posted by saXoni

Why should he not be able to implement these ideas? And why wouldn't I implement an idea of his if I found it reasonable?

He's made like a dozen of posts on various topics, some well argued others not. None of his ideas so far have had any traction, nobody has told him "sure jump on the team and help us work on it" or even been remotely supportive. It's worse for him than the general member but even for the general member there's very little of this, especially as I said in regards to reversing anything.


So at this point its time to face reality rather than be frustrated by the lack of validation and progress. It should work the way you say but it doesn't and sometimes maybe it even shouldn't work that way as I've kinda touched upon in various places in my post on why the dev teams method may not be so bad afterall.

[VTRaptor]

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

If that's how you feel about it then it was a failure from a design perspective. But it's only a failure in that regard then because in this rare instance, very rare indeed, they backtracked somewhat and nerfed it. I guess then leaving nobody really happy.

It's clear from news items and developer comments elsewhere that the intention was the opposite. To do what I said. The fact that you are supposedly able to mitigate or even overcome those effects compared to the old red system despite in your own words ragequitting due to the pre-nerf version is something that I'll not comment on. As I said, good for you, maybe you're more skilled than him.

"Leaving nobody really happy"? Are you serious? Please, make a list of people who are unhappy about current state of bleed or give us a rough estimate based on your experience, as now you're just proclaiming something as a fact, yet base it on nothing. Ever since the nerf, I haven't seen the people complain and cry for reversion.

Perhaps you should also ask DEVs a question of their intentions rather than blindly assuming something? To me, the new effect is just a QoL improvement, which is not supposed to alter the meta. If they wanted to make it so severe, that you'd be unable to fight, they would - it's easier than you think. That would be ruinous to the gameplay though, and it is what it is - a game, so these factors should be balanced. Can't have fun when you're useless as the bleed begins, but can't let you keep fighting on with no penalty. So as long as this balance is kept like in current state, game is fun.

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

Originally Posted by VTRaptor

"Leaving nobody really happy"? Are you serious? Please, make a list of people who are unhappy about current state of bleed or give us a rough estimate based on your experience, as now you're just proclaiming something as a fact, yet base it on nothing. Ever since the nerf, I haven't seen the people complain and cry for reversion.

Perhaps you should also ask DEVs a question of their intentions rather than blindly assuming something? To me, the new effect is just a QoL improvement, which is not supposed to alter the meta. If they wanted to make it so severe, that you'd be unable to fight, they would - it's easier than you think. That would be ruinous to the gameplay though, and it is what it is - a game, so these factors should be balanced. Can't have fun when you're useless as the bleed begins, but can't let you keep fighting on with no penalty. So as long as this balance is kept like in current state, game is fun.

Like, how can I make this any clearer to you. The people that wanted the limitation to induce a change in behaviour, i.e. many of the devs didn't get what they wanted (at least not with you) and the people who mainly wanted a visual indicator of being close to dying didn't get what they wanted either.

I actually like the new nerfed effect but for opposite reasons than you, I feel its more limiting than the other old red one but not as much as the pre-nerfed one. You seem to say its the opposite and that it makes it even easier, in that case it would be a design failure. It clearly wasn't worked on, especially considering its pre-nerfed stage, to make it easier or for it to have anything to do with "skill issues". You're either bullshitting yourself and others or you're indeed very apt at dealing with it. More apt than intended. Which is interesting because unlike you I didn't take a break on the pre-nerfed version and yet I find the current one certainly a limitation on my abilities compared to the red one.

But you can't make everyone impacted by something in the same way and that's all good and dandy. I dont really care.

[SemlerPDX]

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

You're so high on your own fumes. I'm not crying about anything, you're the one bitching and crying about his behaviour. I tried to bridge a gap between you two so you realize you're both human and that the origin of your dispute lay precisely in perceived notions of authority, dedication to cause and systemic issues (i.e. how things are done around here). I.e. you have power, he doesn't he reacts with frustration while you react with dismisiveness.

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

Originally Posted by SemlerPDX

[VTRaptor]

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

Like, how can I make this any clearer to you. The people that wanted the limitation to induce a change in behaviour, i.e. many of the devs didn't get what they wanted (at least not with you) and the people who mainly wanted a visual indicator of being close to dying didn't get what they wanted either.

I actually like the new nerfed effect but for opposite reasons than you, I feel its more limiting than the other old red one but not as much as the pre-nerfed one. You seem to say its the opposite and that it makes it even easier, in that case it would be a design failure. It clearly wasn't worked on, especially considering its pre-nerfed stage, to make it easier or for it to have anything to do with "skill issues". You're either bullshitting yourself and others or you're indeed very apt at dealing with it. More apt than intended. Which is interesting because unlike you I didn't take a break on the pre-nerfed version and yet I find the current one certainly a limitation on my abilities compared to the red one.

But you can't make everyone impacted by something in the same way and that's all good and dandy. I dont really care.

"people that wanted the limitation to induce a change in behaviour" What people? Nobody wanted it, so unless you provide me with evidence i.e. forum suggestion, you're pulling this out of your arse, again. And "Many DEVs"? Which ones? Can you list more than one?

What visual indicator? That's new

"More apt than intended"? What was intended? Again, how do you know that?

[dcm]

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

I know you've engaged with him when the rest of the team has insulated themselves even further.

There's a difference between wanting peace and quiet to work productively at. And cutting oneself off from all feedback and criticism, because you feel that you can do no wrong. It's why modern hollywood is such a fucking mess.

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

That's just positive and DCM seems to have a huge ego

You haven't seen ego, until you've seen some washed up starlet and/or pop singer, get mad that you dont recognize her from some one hit wonder long before your time. You have not seen ego, until you've seen some sound cloud rapper get visibly upset, that you don't know who he is. You have not seen ego, until you've been threatened by the bodyguards of some mediocre 'movie star,' because you refuse to let him intimidate you.

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

On principle i agree and I'm a little bit like this. (Though I think I was more lucky with my professors...)

I hated all my teachers. Especially those in my family. It's this same 'holier than thou, I can do no wrong, because I have god/the state on my side,. I am an infallible authority, because my power comes from adherence to sanctioned dogma' attitude. That always infuriated me. That kind of self righteousness always pissed me off. Same reason why I hate hippies and evangelical preachers.

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

But you have to understand that these folks, some of them have worked on this project for over a decade man, they are tight you know.

I fully understand. That this is a passion project of the devs.

But, I've been playing this game longer than most modern devs have been working on it. I've been around since almost the beginning. Does my seniority mean that I can lecture you young-ins about the good ol' days of PR? No. I've been with PR through it's ups and downs. I've seen player numbers swell and recede time and time again. Due to every single gameplay and design choice. This current bleeding mechanic is a superbly awful mechanic. Not just in execution and implementation. But the very idea of it is retarded.

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

Saying "I'm right" is just objectively fucked up. I mean maybe you're objectively right from the perspective of mass appeal, but clearly at least a few people appreciated the even harsher bleed mechanic as it was when it first got introduced. And they did so because they want that experience of helplessness.

It's not a skill issue as Raptor says, the guy doesn't fucking get it and maybe he's kissing some ass as you say. Maybe he's more skilled or has different binds so he handles it slightly better than you but that's beyond the point. The change is about increasing that feeling and thus reliance on your team mates for help and cover. The whole idea is that skill isn't supposed to save you/it's supposed to be negated at that point.

And in Suchar's case he really wants to go far with it.

But I am right. I dont know of anyone who likes the current bleed mechanic, apart from those who implemented it or those are sucking up to those who made it.

My objection to the current bleeding mechanic, Is not about being a one man army. Far from it. It's a punishment which makes it physically painful to play PR. I'd rather honorably outright lose a fight due the other player being better than me. Than be forced to lose a fight, because the game decides to work against me. Same reason why I fucking hate deviation. And you can kinda work around deviation. But there's nothing you can do with the bleed mechanic. Not even if you have plenty of patches.

It's not about binds. That's just an excuse to wave away all valid criticism. Many players use specialized equipment to make their PR experience better suited to them. Are you going to condemn the pilot who uses a joystick? Because not everybody has a joystick and thus it gives the joystick user an unfair advantage?

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

But I'm not really here to discuss your idea, I'm just gonna tell you that you probably should just stop posting,

Dont tell me what to do.

Originally Posted by saXoni

I was never very fond of FH2 either, at least not enough for me to get hooked. If you're addicted you might as well try to make the best out of it don't you think? I dunno - it's there if you're interested and want to try it out, if you're not then that's completely fine too.

I'm an addict. I fully admit it as much. Anything that gets in the way of my experiencing my addiction will piss me off. It's why junkies dying of a fentanyl overdose on the street, hate narcan and the goody two shoes that administer the substance to the dying junky. Because said goody two shoes think they're doing a good deed, by trying save the junky from an OD. Either let the junky die doing what he loves. His preferred drug. Or cut off the supply of drugs entirely.

P.S. I tried to quit PR many times before. I've gone cold turkey for years at a time. But something keeps pulling me back. PR has a stronger pull on me than alcohol and drugs do. I cant quite explain it. I usually come back to pr when I'm at a low point in my life. And during the pandemic I've been at my lowest.

I believe that PR is a form of mental safety net. It's the 'control' for me, before I do something stupid and/or drastic. I cant quite put it into words. It's like how serial gamblers need to gamble, regardless if they win or lose. Or else they end up either addicted to something worse or committing suicide because they cant scratch that itch. I've known people like that. People who've lost it all and turned to the comfort of scratch off lotto tickets. They spend hundreds of dollars a week. Because if they cant. They die from despair. Gaming both online and off is a form of mental stimulation. That's what all creatures desire mental stimulation. Otherwise depression and existential dread set it. All beings need something to take their mind off their existence. Otherwise they become bored. And, Boredom not Fear, is the mind killer.

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

Originally Posted by VTRaptor

"people that wanted the limitation to induce a change in behaviour" What people? Nobody wanted it, so unless you provide me with evidence i.e. forum suggestion, you're pulling this out of your arse, again. And "Many DEVs"? Which ones? Can you list more than one?

What visual indicator? That's new

"More apt than intended"? What was intended? Again, how do you know that?

I don't care enough to do that man, you can think you win this debate, the devs reading this know the truth and you will see not one person deny this, even though I'm clearly clashing very heavily with them right now. That should be evidence enough to you if you want it.

I'm fine with the way things are, so It's not really my hill to die on.

Tell me though, how can you be so selfish that when the effect was too much for you, you quit the game.

But now that it's not too much for you but too much for someone else, you say to him "Skill issues?" Hmm?

I'm not like Frontliner, I dont think you insulted him or anything and I dont care if you did. I'm more like, how can you even think like that?


PS: If they do deny it I concede that I'm wrong. And thats okay. Easiest way to resolve this if you care about it so much.

Originally Posted by dcm

Dont tell me what to do.

Haha, I love your style dude, its just a suggestion though. You can of course keep posting about what you're passionate about as much as you want. Just don't expect much , as you've seen.


By the way man, you sound a little like Gary Busey, the actor, now that you talk about Hollywood that post in general reminded me of him.

[VTRaptor]

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

I don't care enough to do that man, you can think you win this debate, the devs reading this know the truth and you will see not one person deny this, even though I'm clearly clashing very heavily with them right now. That should be evidence enough to you if you want it.

No evidence, no truth. Sorry. Keep clashing with them tho, I'm sure they enjoy reading all that

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

I'm fine with the way things are, so It's not really my hill to die on.

Tell me though, how can you be so selfish that when the effect was too much for you, you quit the game.

But now that it's not too much for you but too much for someone else, you say to him "Skill issues?" Hmm?

Well you're still up on that hill apparently. That's one.
Two, don't call me selfish, because there was a clearly visible outcry, which you can read through here https://www.realitymod.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=151846. After it was updated, complaints ceased, mine included. It's just the dcm who's left "on that hill", though he puts deviation and kit limitations in bullshit and flaws category, so his mindset is apparently different than the rest.

Originally Posted by Stolt_Yugoslav

I'm not like Frontliner, I dont think you insulted him or anything and I dont care if you did. I'm more like, how can you even think like that?

What are you talking about? Where have I ever insulted him? What hinted you to that observation?

[Stolt_Yugoslav]

Originally Posted by VTRaptor

No evidence, no truth. Sorry. Keep clashing with them tho, I'm sure they enjoy reading all that



Well you're still up on that hill apparently. That's one.
Two, don't call me selfish, because there was a clearly visible outcry, which you can read through here https://www.realitymod.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=151846. After it was updated, complaints ceased, mine included. It's just the dcm who's left "on that hill", though he puts deviation and kit limitations in bullshit and flaws category, so his mindset is apparently different than the rest.



What are you talking about? Where have I ever insulted him? What hinted you to that observation?

¨¨

It's because you're a newb and he's as much or more veteran than anyone who has posted here (either that or you're lying to yourself/this forum or your memory is faulty which is worse). Deviation and kit limitations, especially later in regards to the inabillity to pick up kits for the insurgency that the BLUFOR forces dropped when dying but also in terms of selection on spawn were major contentious issues. The reason why nobody is bitching about them anymore is because people weren't listened to then or it took ages for criticism to go through. So people accepted it or moved on.

And they were implemented for the same reasons I'm telling you that this thing was implemented, that is nudging more and more realistic behaviour through both realistic and unrealistic gameplay changes and mechanics. If there's one unifying design vision here it's realistic behaviour, not simulation or mechanics.


As I said, no dev will deny this, don't care if they enjoy reading it or not or if you agree with me or not.

Also I'm saying that you didn't insult him or if you did that I dont care, learn to read. How hard is this?

I dont think you insulted him or anything and I dont care if you did.