v1.6.8 Recoil has destroyed gunplay

[WingWalker]

Originally Posted by dcm

The 1911 has the same recoil as a battle rifle

Yeah, the 1911 should have way more recoil.

Although, which battle rifle in the world he is talking about I don't know...

Originally Posted by dcm

Six seconds is an awful lot of time to be standing still, and lining up your shot.

Yeah, fortunately you only need to do that to hit targets at the maximum distance.

You don't need to wait the whole 6 for something closer.

[[R-DEV]​camo]

Originally Posted by dcm

You know, I think this whole; 'Six Second Settle Down System.' Needs to be looked at too. Six seconds is an awful lot of time to be standing still, and lining up your shot. Especially in a game like this where people have little incentive to camp. I think the system should remain for sniper rifles and other long range weapons. But should be lessened for service rifles and pistol caliber weapons..

This will not change, not for PR.
Deviation slows the gameplay. It stops the player going from a sprint to a headshot, it stops firefights being over in an instant, it rewards those that plan ahead. It is a very important ingredient in the PR recipe.

[dcm]

Originally Posted by WingWalker

which battle rifle in the world he is talking about I don't know...

All of them. They all have similar recoil. Last time I checked.

Yeah, fortunately you only need to do that to hit targets at the maximum distance.
You don't need to wait the whole 6 for something closer.

Nope you can miss a target 100m away even if you're one second short on the wait time.

Originally Posted by camo

This will not change, not for PR.
Deviation slows the gameplay. It stops the player going from a sprint to a headshot, it stops firefights being over in an instant, it rewards those that plan ahead. It is a very important ingredient in the PR recipe.

I will never accept deviation as a good and legitimate gameplay mechanic in any game. Having your gun shoot sideways, because you stopped to take a shot at somebody, will always feel like bullshit. I'm not saying all guns need to be sniper accurate all the time. But having your gun make an outline of the enemy in bullets, because all your shots miss. It's like something out of a bad british comedy sketch.

Granted modern day PR's deviation is not as bad as it was in .7. Now that was overt in your face unfair bullshit. I still remember those dark days. So many friends quit. MOA I can understand. But it has to disclosed and there has to be a way to work around the mechanic. I cant recall the last game I played that had proper MOA mechanics that didn't go hard into the milsim side.

[[R-CON]​Frontliner]

Originally Posted by dcm

You know, I think this whole; 'Six Second Settle Down System.' Needs to be looked at too. Six seconds is an awful lot of time to be standing still, and lining up your shot.

I have no idea where you're getting the numbers from, but outside of the deployed weapons and AT weapons there is no weapon system that requires you to wait more than 4, and this has been the case for EIGHT AND A HALF years now. Looking through the files, most weapons seem to have the movement deviation set to decay over the span of 105 to 120 game ticks.

Originally Posted by dcm

Especially in a game like this where people have little incentive to camp.

Huh? Both in Insurgency and AAS there is value to holding ground. What do you mean there is no incentive in defending, that's the entire playstyle of the insurgents with the exception of FOB hunters and Civis....

Originally Posted by dcm

What got me killed was the god damn deviation. We were less than 5m apart and I saw my bullets go around the guy, hitting the wall in front of him.

What got you killed was your own impatience. If an enemy hasn't noticed you, you have all the time in the world. We even have indicators now to let you know how much longer you have to wait....

Originally Posted by dcm

I will never accept deviation as a good and legitimate gameplay mechanic in any game. Having your gun shoot sideways, because you stopped to take a shot at somebody, will always feel like bullshit.

There a a bunch of engine restrictions that cannot be breached, we can't model sway for example, we can't model actual fatigue, and so the deviation mechanic becomes our only option to force players to play in a more tactical manner because you can't out-skill or out-aim your opponent. Every time I watch Squad's, Post Scriptum's or Hell Let Loose's gameplay I can't help but feel that you basically still have a twitch-shooter with some extra steps to make the casuals think that it's hardcore. If you consider these games more interesting than what is being offered by us, you should give them a try. It's not as though it's 2012 and the only choices are either Arma or PR for your teamwork needs.

The team universally agrees that both for aforementioned restrictions and in the interest of gameplay we'll not do away with having the deviation mechanic being an integral part of it. I have some ideas with regards to CQB, to make the instances during which you legitemately shoot all around your opponent less common, but it's always dependant on randomisation as well as you adhearing to the game's rules, I can only increase the certainty of events happening in your favour when you play correctly. If you're still impatient and can't be arsed to wait a second or two, I can tell you any change I make won't do you any good, that's just how it is.

[BigBigMonkeyMan]

I agree, Squad and Hell Let Loose gameplay clips all just look like Battlefield 4 weapons gun play but with lower time to kill. The ability to twitch shoot headshots is just dumb. In those games, it never appears people pick their engagements either or using suppressing fire. If you see an enemy there is no thought, just shoot. PR is about making those decisions on when to fire and when not to fire, as well as using squad tactics like covering fire.

[Grump/Gump.45]

Originally Posted by dcm

I will never accept deviation as a good and legitimate gameplay mechanic in any game. Having your gun shoot sideways, because you stopped to take a shot at somebody, will always feel like bullshit. I'm not saying all guns need to be sniper accurate all the time. But having your gun make an outline of the enemy in bullets, because all your shots miss. It's like something out of a bad british comedy sketch.

Deviation should never extend past the middle 1/3 of the screen unless coming out of a sprint due to weapon swaying. 6 seconds sounds about right for coming out of a sprint, getting a good cheek weld to stock, lining up target. This game doesn't have heavy breathing from running throwing aim off but deviation can represent that. 10 steps I would have to say for shooting that could translate to deviation.

1. stop moving
2. cheek weld
3. breath control
4. shoulder pocket rifle butt for recoil
5. steady body

Ill come up with the other 5 later, all related to bio-mechanics that throw aim off.

[dcm]

Originally Posted by Frontliner

I believe a member of the Reality team told me that it's six seconds and yeah I believe it.

Impatience? No it was an emergency. The enemy was only a few meters away from me. Deviation should not be so bad as to make me miss every last shot.

Surprisingly I agree with about PR's spiritual successors. I dont like them either. But it's not for the reasons you listed. Twitch shooters are not my jam either. Games like PS, HLL, Squad etc. All lack the heart and soul of PR. They are so restrictive. It doesn't make sense to me that one part is tactical milsim and the other is cod. PR has overall better gameplay. In spite of it's deviation system.

Let me tell you(again) why the deviation system is fucking bullshit. I'm in a game of kozelsk right now. I stop moving, wait for the compass bars to solidify into one. Take my shot on an enemy facing away from me about 50m. Aimed semi auto fire. I miss, miss again, and again. So this guy does a 180 with a ppsh from full standing position and headshots me. Now tell me how and why that is not bullshit? I literally alt tabbed to reply to this post.

[[R-CON]​Frontliner]

Originally Posted by dcm

I believe a member of the Reality team told me that it's six seconds and yeah I believe it.

There is no reason to "believe", I'm telling you straight up how it is. If you still think that you for sure know better than I do, well, the math required is a simple division, that's the only truth in this game that exists.

Originally Posted by dcm

I stop moving, wait for the compass bars to solidify into one. Take my shot on an enemy facing away from me about 50m. Aimed semi auto fire. I miss, miss again, and again. So this guy does a 180 with a ppsh from full standing position and headshots me.

If you're missing, that's on you. If the PPSh was the one to kill you, that's indeed a lucky break he had, something the system is designed to avoid 99.9999% of the time, yet cannot be ruled out.

Originally Posted by dcm

Now tell me how and why that is not bullshit?

However, it wasn't the PPSh that toasted you, it was a Dragunov.

The system works as intended.

[dcm]

Originally Posted by Frontliner

However, it wasn't the PPSh that toasted you, it was a Dragunov.

Well that's even worse. I should've gotten the kill on the breacher atleast. Honestly I'd be less pissed off, if it was the ppsh, because I can understand the saturation of bullets heading my way. And yes, I've seen/been popped before by a ppsh burst from 100m+ before.

The system works as intended.

Intended to be what? Unfair? I've had more luck running and gunning than I ever did with waiting for my shots to settle down.

[[R-CON]​Frontliner]

You're actually going on record saying that a Designated Marksman Rifle managing to headshot you at a distance of 100m is more bullshit gameplay-wise than someone wildly spraying with an SMG?