[Gameplay] v1.6.1 - Gameplay changes

[[R-DEV]Suchar]

To balance this thread, I can say that I 100% support the mentioned gameplay changes.

[TheMerchantOfMenace]

Originally Posted by Woxbel

I am sorry I have to say I find this a very frustrating response to this thread by a PR staff member, He also seems to imply that He is speaking for the team which makes it worse.(“ It would be quite uplifting if you were to tell us what a” , "we're all aware of that, but it's not something we can simply wish to go away.")

Like no matter how anyone else feels to me(Medic only player) this change seems like something that will change a main part of how I play/enjoy the game. And once others and me mention the fact they dislike this change his response is basically Grow up/Deal with it. That doesn’t really make me feel welcome or taken serious.

Yes you put effort and time into making this game and I am thankful for that and if you make a certain decision on the game design front than that is your choice. Leaving me and any other players with two choices either deal with it or stop playing I get that.

All that being said I still think it is a very frustrating and dismissive/hostile way to respond to feedback.

For now I am going to follow Nate his suggestion and see how it plays since that only seems fair and maybe I did jump the gun a bit with my feedback. Although I will admit I am obviously still rather skeptical about the whole thing.

Myself, having played the Medic role practically exclusively for years, agree fully with everything Woxbel, Webcole, Filamu, and Mectus have stated over various posts here, and do as well find Frontliner's attitude toward suggestions from the community rather troubling.

Fewer successful revives will surely have negative effects on squad cohesion, and ultimately, this will mean reduced team cohesion. This is currently a significant problem outside of organized tournament play (in everyday Pub play, in other words).

As it stands now, we already have a difficult enough time trying to convince players to make use of Medics and not give up, so it seems to stand to reason that this new mechanic making the viability of successful revives drastically lower, will further incentivize these same players to not wait for a revive.

Secondly, all these extra ticket losses will result in shorter rounds, meaning that coordination between varying squads might happen less often, as the faster ticket countdowns would discourage squads wasting time waiting for other elements of the team to catch up or organize.

We have a lot of new players of late, and the game rounds now seem much shorter and erratic than they used to be as a result of this, and recently it's all too common to look at the stats board during gameplay (TAB key) and see squads with K/D ratios of 5/39 and shit like that... so discouraging, with these new changes I wouldn't even want to look at the K/D ratios anymore, suicide is supposedly a sin.

I certainly hope it won't take long for the effects to be noticed and reverted, and if I'm mistaken about the deleterious effects of these changes, then I will be so happy to take back the faulty observations and suppositions I am currently making.

And as for that one guy talking about nearly never making use of field dressing, all I can say to that is that I hope he is never a Medic on any squad I am part of, because by his account of his use of the kit, he clearly doesn't understand it.

Despite what I believe to be this slight mistake, I still want to take time here to throw out a GREAT BIG THANKS!!! to the DEVs for all the hard work and fantastic results their efforts achieve, from which we all benefit greatly.

[Damian_]

I love stamina nerf, it was just silly that soldier who was nearly dead could run no problem after a piece of cloth and epipen. Also limiting mobility of wounded soldier is a good change.

[Damian_]

Originally Posted by TheMerchantOfMenace

Myself, having played the Medic role practically exclusively for years, agree fully with everything Woxbel, Webcole, Filamu, and Mectus have stated over various posts here, and do as well find Frontliner's attitude toward suggestions from the community rather troubling.

Fewer successful revives will surely have negative effects on squad cohesion, and ultimately, this will mean reduced team cohesion. This is currently a significant problem outside of organized tournament play (in everyday Pub play, in other words).

Don't agree the only players that could achieve that kind of revives were very good players, mostly clans, their squad cohesion is in no danger from that kind of change. Weaker players wont feel this change only "muh K/D" players will.

If anything this is good change because it will flatten difference between good and bad players that will now have less struggle to achieve any kills.

Originally Posted by TheMerchantOfMenace

As it stands now, we already have a difficult enough time trying to convince players to make use of Medics and not give up, so it seems to stand to reason that this new mechanic making the viability of successful revives drastically lower, will further incentivize these same players to not wait for a revive.

Succes chance of revive is not "drastically lower" it's only the "chiki breki" wtf just happened kind of revives that are less likely to work.

Originally Posted by TheMerchantOfMenace

Secondly, all these extra ticket losses will result in shorter rounds, meaning that coordination between varying squads might happen less often, as the faster ticket countdowns would discourage squads wasting time waiting for other elements of the team to catch up or organize.

I dont see how length of rounds influence "coordination between varying squads".

Originally Posted by TheMerchantOfMenace

We have a lot of new players of late, and the game rounds now seem much shorter and erratic than they used to be as a result of this, and recently it's all too common to look at the stats board during gameplay (TAB key) and see squads with K/D ratios of 5/39 and shit like that... so discouraging, with these new changes I wouldn't even want to look at the K/D ratios anymore, suicide is supposedly a sin.

Yes and this change will change K/D of those squads to more like 10/40. Again this change does not hit bottom players, it hits top ones. Bottom players could not achieve thous magic revives anyway, but now their enemy wont either.

Top squad are more likely to be 40/10 instead of 39/5.

Originally Posted by TheMerchantOfMenace

I certainly hope it won't take long for the effects to be noticed and reverted, and if I'm mistaken about the deleterious effects of these changes, then I will be so happy to take back the faulty observations and suppositions I am currently making.

And as for that one guy talking about nearly never making use of field dressing, all I can say to that is that I hope he is never a Medic on any squad I am part of, because by his account of his use of the kit, he clearly doesn't understand it.

Despite what I believe to be this slight mistake, I still want to take time here to throw out a GREAT BIG THANKS!!! to the DEVs for all the hard work and fantastic results their efforts achieve, from which we all benefit greatly.

Me too, thank you to all DEVs and to PR Community for existing.



To finish I will only say, DEVs pls dont let pressure force you to remove it to quickly, let it be tested. Every nerf is also a buff, the way I see it this will only hit good players and buff bad/new ones, because:
1. Bad players could not achieve hard revives anyway.
2. Good players won't be able to rob enemy bad player of their kills that easily

[Web_cole]

Originally Posted by Damian_

If anything this is good change because it will flatten difference between good and bad players that will now have less struggle to achieve any kills.

Its a good point, people being better at stuff than other people is not fair.

This definitely doesn't go far enough though. What we need is a complete auto-aim function. Its not fair when some people have better reflexes than others.

But then so much of PR is decision making and good judgement. Obviously its not fair if some people make better decisions than other people. So we'll have to ban humans from playing and only have bots. That way its a completely level playing field. No unfair advantages whatsoever.

[Sapper28]

Running off after being patch revived always seemed UNREALISTIC to me. As we are playing project REALITY, I support the changes to the medic role, regardless of how some players may react.

Keep up the good work devs, we love you out here.

[InfantryGamer42]

Originally Posted by TheMerchantOfMenace

Myself, having played the Medic role practically exclusively for years, agree fully with everything Woxbel, Webcole, Filamu, and Mectus have stated over various posts here, and do as well find Frontliner's attitude toward suggestions from the community rather troubling.

Fewer successful revives will surely have negative effects on squad cohesion, and ultimately, this will mean reduced team cohesion. This is currently a significant problem outside of organized tournament play (in everyday Pub play, in other words).

As it stands now, we already have a difficult enough time trying to convince players to make use of Medics and not give up, so it seems to stand to reason that this new mechanic making the viability of successful revives drastically lower, will further incentivize these same players to not wait for a revive.

Secondly, all these extra ticket losses will result in shorter rounds, meaning that coordination between varying squads might happen less often, as the faster ticket countdowns would discourage squads wasting time waiting for other elements of the team to catch up or organize.

We have a lot of new players of late, and the game rounds now seem much shorter and erratic than they used to be as a result of this, and recently it's all too common to look at the stats board during gameplay (TAB key) and see squads with K/D ratios of 5/39 and shit like that... so discouraging, with these new changes I wouldn't even want to look at the K/D ratios anymore, suicide is supposedly a sin.

I certainly hope it won't take long for the effects to be noticed and reverted, and if I'm mistaken about the deleterious effects of these changes, then I will be so happy to take back the faulty observations and suppositions I am currently making.

And as for that one guy talking about nearly never making use of field dressing, all I can say to that is that I hope he is never a Medic on any squad I am part of, because by his account of his use of the kit, he clearly doesn't understand it.

Despite what I believe to be this slight mistake, I still want to take time here to throw out a GREAT BIG THANKS!!! to the DEVs for all the hard work and fantastic results their efforts achieve, from which we all benefit greatly.

So, It is funny that you and others, whit full right, jump up in arms to protest because of little toxic and harsh response by Frontliner, but then you proceed to be toxic towards me, just because I stated fact that is going against your story. I can immediately tell you that this is not way if you want to have constructive argument whit all people interested in this change.

I stated fact. As guy that played whit all possible kits in this game, I have not experienced many medics using patch+revive and I also did not felt need to use it any time I played. Still, whit my apparently "bad" medic skills, I saved my squadmates many times, got commend by my squad leaders for my work. I can and I will argue that 99/100 medics in this game do not use this mechanic at all and they, including me, do not feel like there medic performance suffers because of that. As large majority of medics do not use this mechanic in game, I do not see how will this impact larger PR gameplay? While we can maybe agree that this mechanic makes big difference between your standard medic and best ones we have, I still do not think this change will brake game as you claim.

[Damian_]

Originally Posted by Web_cole

Its a good point, people being better at stuff than other people is not fair.

This definitely doesn't go far enough though. What we need is a complete auto-aim function. Its not fair when some people have better reflexes than others.

But then so much of PR is decision making and good judgement. Obviously its not fair if some people make better decisions than other people. So we'll have to ban humans from playing and only have bots. That way its a completely level playing field. No unfair advantages whatsoever.

"But then so much of PR is decision making and good judgement." Like not running in middle of open ground where reviving you wont be possible?

With this small change PR will be a little bit less arcade and a little bit more tactics. You should like it mister tournament.

Also this is a nerf to lone wolfs meaning buff to squads, as now LWs will suffer mobility decrease when wounded.

[[R-MOD]Nate.]

Let's please stay civil and not continue the debate on who is toxic towards whom.

[Woxbel]

At this point there are so many falsehoods being stated that I feel the need to argue against them again.

Originally Posted by InfantryGamer42

Literarly 99/100 medics do not use this mechanic at all. I used it maybe once and I still never feelt I could not go for some revive.

“Literarly 99/100 medics do not use this mechanic at all.” Let’s start off with an easy one this is literally false. For starters you are getting the 99/100 number out of your imagination. Secondarily it is anecdotal so I am not even going as far as saying that you are lying.

I only play medic and because of that I know loads of medics the second medic in your squad tends to stick out. Next to me observing what medics do outside my squad to see if I can learn something from them. It is a very rare occasion when I find one that doesn’t use the patch revive certainly much more rare than 99/100.

Those numbers would mean that on an average night 2 full server there would only be 2 medics online that know/use the patch revive which simply is false since that would mean that every night I play my squad has those two sole medics.

But the people that are actually paying attention might have noticed that math is wrong as well since those 200 players aren’t all medics so it would take multiple rounds without me playing to even get to that statistic. And that is assuming I am the only one that uses it which is simply false.

The only medics I tend to see not using it at all are new players or people that haven’t played medic much if at all. Does that mean these medics you describe don’t exist no it doesn’t since for starters I don’t play in US times so for all I know no one uses it there. And of course this is also just anecdotal but it for sure does proof that the 99/100 number is extremely of the mark. I would think 50/100 is still high for example. My guess would be 20/100 to be a more accurate description of the number but really I don't have a clue except for the fact 99/100 is bs. That being said not every medic that does use it does it with the same effect/efficiency I will admit to that.

I will say that I have to agree with Mechant his view on being a medic since in my way of being a medic not using a patch revive even in the new system is very risky and disadvantageous in most situations. Since even in this system that extra bar of health might just save your patient a death which in my eyes should be your main objective as a medic. But that is just my way of doing it.

And just to make sure I have never experienced or seen you play medic so I am not making any statements about your skill, for all I know you are a great medic. Part of my point in this is that medic/squads that know what they are doing will most easily be able to adapt although I still think it would affect them just to a lesser extent. So it could well be that you are ahead of the curve and a great medic despite not using this very useful tool.

Let me make this observation many people that seem to be in favor of the change reference some anti K/D whore or Lone wolf sentiment arguing this change will hurt them. I think the opposite is true. At best it will keep the K/D whore equal but realistically it will make it easier on them. And obviously this increases the odds towards the favor of lone wolfing and anti-teamwork behavior. The same people often add the statement this will aid new/bad players. While I think it actively hurts New and “bad” players. The only exception might be “bad” medics since they weren’t using this technique they will have it easier now but only if compared to medics that did use it.

Originally Posted by Damian_

Also this is a nerf to lone wolfs meaning buff to squads, as now LWs will suffer mobility decrease when wounded.

“Also this is a nerf to lone wolfs meaning buff to squads, as now LWs will suffer mobility decrease when wounded.”

My definition of a lone wolf is someone that doesn’t play with his squad or cooperate in any meaningful way. Last time I checked you aren’t able to patch revive yourself so saying this will hurt them is the wrong way around. That lonely AR/Sniper or whatever kit you want to use to lone wolf will directly have a benefit if he shoots someone in the right spot it has now become harder on the cooperating squad to get there squad mate up.

Originally Posted by Damian_

2. Good players won't be able to rob enemy bad player of their kills that easily

“Good players won't be able to rob enemy bad player of their kills that easily”
Good players tend to be aggressive they tend to Nade they tend to put pressure they tend to push I am not even mentioning assets which let’s be honest is where the true K/D guys hide. The counter to all of those things can be a patch revive. So in my eyes the statement should be "Bad" players won't be able to rob enemey good players of their kills that easilly.

A player of any level that is able to communicate and wants to play together can get patch revived by a Medic that knows how. Players with more experience getting patch revived will admittedly have an advantage here but that experience advantage quickly levels out after you have been patch revived like 10 times you probably know the drill. Not to mention like Web pointed out through the entire game there a skill/experience advantages.

Than we have the Poor positioning argument almost from some kind of elitist view on the situation.

Originally Posted by Wolfenheimer

I Also, less players who would rather beg a medic to save them from their own poor positioning choices rather than admit they messed up, especially once they get told by enough medics that they aren't coming.

I think everyone on occasion dies in a shit position it can’t always be helped. But yes I do agree some have a tendency to do this more than others. The people using this argument seem to think by making it harder these people will be punished enough to start playing better(“less players who would rather beg a medic to save them from their own poor positioning choices”) They are already getting punished because often times the people described here aren’t revivable at all with or without patch revive and some Medic/SL will just tell them to give up since it isn’t worth the risk. And yet they are still doing it by punishing them more they will most likely keep playing the same way and end with even more deaths. It is just punishing the medics since if you think they will stop calling for a medic than you haven’t played PR long enough yet.



I am more of a mindset of teaching these players hoping they become better as opposed to shunning them and punishing them into changing. Next to my other critiques of previous post this is a big part of my issue with it. I enjoy having 1 or 2 blue guys in the squad especially if they are new players (On occassion these guys stick around and get added to the list of players I enjoy playing with). This will now become less viable and less enjoyable for them and us which is sad I think.

Originally Posted by Woxbel

It also makes it a less enjoyable experience for new players where a squad/medic could now still save a downed player that wasn’t in the best of cover. Effectively covering the shortage of skill of one player by teamwork of his squad. Ofc this could theoretically still happen if you clear the entire area but no matter how you look at it this decreases the odds of that considerably. Which might make it harder altogether for new players to get into established squads in the first place.

The Realism argument:

While yes PR stands for Project Reality let’s be honest here it isn’t reality and I am not even talking about the fact it is a game. In my eyes on the Realism/Arcade meter: Arma --- Project reality --- Squad(among others) PR sits at a happy position in between the two for me.

Let me make that more visual/practical:

We are at the main street in Mutrah my SL places a Foxhole at the middle of the road all I need to do is shovel it 6 times and tad dah there is a foxhole. This isn’t at all realistic yet we still do it because we understand it is a game and some things have to be done to improve the gameplay or reach a desired effect.

When I scream at my loudest in Squad radio the enemy won’t hear me in local this isn’t realistic at all yet we still do it because we understand it is a game and somethings have to be done to improve teamwork/gameplay.

If you pass out because you took 6 bullets getting an epi pen in your body won’t make you suddenly be able to walk or do anything for that matter yet the people arguing the realism point in this debate are totally okay with that. But it can’t be if a medic wastes a few extra precious seconds exposed to put the patch on he could run for a bit. Maybe we should make it so you can only be prone for the first 2 minutes as well?

When I pass out or even when I die I can still talk to my squad instruct them on where the enemy was hell I can even tell them if they are on my body right now this is way more unrealistic than running after getting revived yet this is still in the game.

I will stop now but believe me I can keep going on and on listing other unrealistic things in the game which we still have in it because of convenience. Ofc the closest you can get to realism in the game are one life events since you don't respawn at all among other changes. Yet that isn't how the regular PR servers are run.

The point is making choices based on convenience / teamwork / gameplay over reality aren’t alien or rare at all to this game so just saying: "oh reality" isn’t as much of a winning argument as you might think. If you think the decision in this case should fall on the reality side I can respect that even though I happen to disagree.

Misconception about what a patch revive is in this context

A misconception that got thrown around as well a few times seemed to be that Patch revive are great or even exclusive to mobile squads. While in reality they work just as well if not better for a holding squad. Quickly reviving a guy on the frontline to than retreat with your patient behind it is more or less the classic Patch revive. This is harder to do with a quickly moving frontline since the security behind the line is way less guaranteed in that case.

Patch revives if done in the way that is getting prevented by this change actually slow down the squad since it takes more time for each revive. There is no such thing as putting the pen in and now we are moving forward since the guy can run since he still needs to be healed so what you tend to do is go to a safe position with your patient while the squad covers you aka slowing the squad down. If you do a patch revive on the spot than yes that speeds up the process and might increase mobility this is still possible/unchanged.