v0.7 Map Poll

[101 bassdrive]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Rhino

about qwaiWhy haven't you classed this map with rush tactics? one of the biggest most common tactics on this map which can easily let PLA win is to rush the mine flag with a jeep full of guys, then hold it and wait for the tanks to turn up and help you support it? Can remember DP telling me the other day about a game he had like that, where his whole team just sat on that flag, where one squad went around the rear flags just capping them all upto the mine

I think because the marines have a few possibilities to counter with this particular tactic and have equal possibilities to block altough I barely ever see it on pubplay.

though there are tactics which factically disable any marine advance which are borderline exploit.

hard to explain without spoiling but I stil think its the best PR up to date

[Wolfe]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Rhino

the last thing you guys want from what your telling me is a pure frag fest, team death match game mode which it would become?

This game is centered around modern day combat, so in it's simplest form, the entire game is a frag fest... BUT... There is a huge difference between 64 players fighting over the same two 100 meter flags every time you play, versus fighting over random areas which are different every time you play.

If you don't want to figure out where the enemy is, don't want to wait for action, and don't want any variation to how the map plays, then the current AAS system is perfect. Just look at the map, travel to the big orange arrow, and pew pew away. It becomes boring over time, because every map is predictable.

If you want to use recon to find the enemy, use that recon to determine its strength, then formulate an attack to eliminate them, then a random/no flag system is perfect. The map is just a layout of the terrain, not secret plans to the enemy's location. It becomes exciting over time, because every map is unpredictable.

but if you have no flags there is no intensive in a player to go outside his main

That's a problem regardless of what flag system you have. But the game is about combat, and sitting in your main doesn't achieve that goal. If people want to shoot the enemy, they'll have to travel outside of it.

A no-flag system would probably work better on smaller maps, where you're bound to run into the enemy within the first 60 seconds anyway, but at least you're not all huddled around the same, small, capture points. This is why I suggest the multiple layers, so that a map can support both a no-flag and random-flag system simultaneously to see which plays better on the fly.

about qwaiWhy haven't you classed this map with rush tactics? one of the biggest most common tactics on this map which can easily let PLA win is to rush the mine flag with a jeep full of guys, then hold it and wait for the tanks to turn up and help you support it?

Because only a foolish tank commander would attempt to capture the mine with his tank, an area heavily in favor of infantry. Instead, the Chinese tanks would fortify the processing plant, an area heavily in favor of tanks. While it's possible for China to cap mine with choppers, it's not easy, since USA can do the same thing. By rush tactics, I'm more specifically referring to maps where you can capture the enemy's first flag very easily, before the enemy has a chance to get there, thus holding him there and preventing him from capping any others flags in the map.

Like Jabal where the MEC takes their two APC's and rushes the west flag, preventing the USA from taking it. With that flag, they can't cap any other interior flags such as the bridge or dam.

Or maps like Zatar, where MEC spawns at the west airfield, takes the APC and command truck up to the north hill, and prevents the USA from landing at site 1 while at the same time locking up helecopters on the carrier before they even lift off.

Or on maps like Kashan, where USA spawns at the southeastern outpost, takes a tank and a few infantry to the south village flag and obliterates the MEC who has no heavy armor there. The USA holds that flag the entire round, while at the same time capping both bunkers with near zero opposition.

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What I'm trying to say that with a fixed AAS system, the maps play the same way, every time. It gets old. When a map loads, people groan and say "sigh.. ok here we go gain.. same old tactic for this map" and it plays out like a tired old movie to which you know all the dialog before the actors say their lines.

Without creating a whole new set of maps, which is extremely difficult and time consuming, the answer is to make existing maps dynamic and ever-changing. Completely random every time you play with no pre-determined points that are pre-known by both sides.

Moreover, a random/no flag system is far more realistic. Ask yourself: what modern-day soldier can look at his map and know where the enemy will be 1st, 2nd, and 3rd? It's a tired system that has been employed by fps makers for years to force fast action by removing the "think/plan" portion of the game which is a critical part of realistic, modern day combat.

If you want, I can hook up on TS and give a more detailed description.. it's hard to convey the idea over forum posts without losing something in the translation.

[Rhino]

Originally Posted by Wolfe

What I'm trying to say that with a fixed AAS system, the maps play the same way, every time. It gets old.

Yes I fully understand that and agree with you, why I didn't comment on there. I was referring to the other points I quoted.

[Wolfe]

If the only concern is that people will not leave the main... I don't think that will be an issue at all. So the only questions are:

Is a no-flag, random-flag system the best option?
Is there another system available?
Can it be done?
Is someone willing to code it?
How long/difficult would it be to implement?

[agentscar]

My fav. .7 maps :

Al Kufrah
Al Basrah
The Battle For Qinling
Daqing Oilfields
Ejod Desert
Gulf Of Oman
Jabal Al Burj
Kashan Desert
Operation Ghost Train
Qwai River
Sunset City
Zatar Wetlands

[Rhino]

Originally Posted by Wolfe

If the only concern is that people will not leave the main... I don't think that will be an issue at all. So the only questions are:

Is a no-flag, random-flag system the best option?
Is there another system available?
Can it be done?
Is someone willing to code it?
How long/difficult would it be to implement?

in r/l battles there are objectives (ie, intensives), giving no objectives will not = in good gameplay.

Random objectives which the enemy dont fully know about is a good idea, and we kinda have a little of this already with firebases & rally points which can become objectives and can spring up in random places but other places are more common than others no doubt.

Having no flags or no objectives would overall not go down well with such maps, period.

If you can think of good game modes like these, like random cps etc which has already been talked about, please post them up


can you also please tell me what you think a good CP is like:

Originally Posted by me

Ye I agree, thou still some flags, one or 2 its nice to have this on for vried combat, thou some maps like qinling etc have too many of these where yes we have over done it. Although Fools road also has lots of these bowl terrain flags, the mine, the train deport, the heli air base and the village all are in a bowl where you can get onto the surrounding terrain and shoot down into the flag, so why didn't you pick that up? I'm also very confused as to why you have said the towers on AoM have the bowl terrain effect, where they are in fact both on hills and if anything are too easy to defend as a result, thou you can easily flank them which balances them out pretty well. So ye why do you class these as bowl terrain CPs?

Acording to this, open flat terrain is bad (which it is), bowl terrain is bad, and flags on hills are bad, so ehhh, what do you think is the best kinda CP setup then?

[Wolfe]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Rhino

and you also please tell me what you think a good CP is like:

Although Fools road also has lots of these bowl terrain flags, the mine, the train deport, the heli air base and the village all are in a bowl where you can get onto the surrounding terrain and shoot down into the flag, so why didn't you pick that up?

Yes, these are bowl terrains, but they also have a LOT of trees, bushes, buildings, and small but sharp-angled hills that surround the entire flag, right up to the entrance point. A sharp-eye'd marksman might be able to pick you off while entering, but if he's not paying attention for just a few seconds, it's all you need to sneak inside undetected.

I'm also very confused as to why you have said the towers on AoM have the bowl terrain effect, where they are in fact both on hills and if anything are too easy to defend as a result, thou you can easily flank them which balances them out pretty well. So ye why do you class these as bowl terrain CPs?

These flags are borderline, especially the west tower, but think about this for a moment. Approaching the west tower from the south is risky as hell with all the open terrain. There are points to the south east, west, and north in which you can approach undetected, but since the map is so small, these well-known travel lanes are constantly camped.

[MaxBooZe]

My top:
-Qwai
-Bashrah
-Road to Kyongan
-Sunset
-Zatar

[Rhino]

Originally Posted by Wolfe

Yes, these are bowl terrains, but they also have a LOT of trees, bushes, buildings, and small but sharp-angled hills that surround the entire flag, right up to the entrance point. A sharp-eye'd marksman might be able to pick you off while entering, but if he's not paying attention for just a few seconds, it's all you need to sneak inside undetected.

ye rgr, what I was thinking you may say, but the flags are still in bowl terrain? So what you are saying is providing there is enough cover and not that much of a advantage from being on the hills etc, bowl terrain is ok?

Originally Posted by Wolfe

These flags are borderline, especially the west tower, but think about this for a moment. Approaching the west tower from the south is risky as hell with all the open terrain. There are points to the south east, west, and north in which you can approach undetected, but since the map is so small, these well-known travel lanes are constantly camped.

I still dont understand how you have classed these flags with bowl terrain? If anything these are the kinda flags you like since they are on a hill and are "easy to defend"?

[Wolfe]

Originally Posted by [R-DEV]Rhino

ye rgr, what I was thinking you may say, but the flags are still in bowl terrain? So what you are saying is providing there is enough cover and not that much of a advantage from being on the hills etc, bowl terrain is ok?

More or less, yes. The main negative part of bowl terrain is when the flag sits inside the bowl, with little or no surrounding cover for infantry to enter/exit, for example, AlKufra, Qinling, etc. It's no fun when infantry has virtually no chance of getting close.

(Mestia towers) I still dont understand how you have classed these flags with bowl terrain?

True, they do sit on hills... I was pretty much thinking of the valley to the south of the west tower that the Brits often have to cross when the east and west flanks are covered. That's what I get for doing 5 things at once then typing too much. In hindsight, mestia towers aren't bowls, but they sure as hell are frag fests since there are usually 4-5 squads (1-3 per team) at each flag. That's a lot of peeps in one place.