CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... - Page 7

ma21212 · 2009-12-02, 17:26

I dont think so, first its very simple to Laze then tell him what the coords are cuz ussualy ur SL and you can put a marker on the laze and give exact pos. second its almost impossible to find the laze if you dont know were it is. third....AA! AA will rip you a new one if you fly too low hell TANKs could be just as dangerous as my gunner has shot down a few low flying jets trying to A) dumb bomb us or B) use thier MG while our tank is in full health

CAS_117 · 2009-12-02, 19:00

Flying CAS is all about probabilities, efficiency, and risk management.

For the following examples assume you are in a Fighter, with an Attack Aircraft, a squad leader
is lasing for you, and one other observer with any kit with binoculars. The purpose of these is to help give examples of when it is worth risking your aircraft to ground fire, when it is not, and what kind of possibilities you need to be able to infer. All of the stuff I have written is based on my personal experience, and may not reflect yours. These things might not happen exactly this way, they might not happen at all, but the idea is to be able to comprehend the available actions and the kind of outcome your decision in the cockpit makes.

Scenario 1 (AA + Ground Advantage): You destroy both enemy aircraft within the first minute while your ground forces are winning (tank squad has say 13 kills and 0 deaths). You do an intel pass over bunkers at 500m to see if you are tracked. No lock is received.

Action 1: Attack enemy infantry and logistics forces.

Outcome 1: Possibly trap enemy team at main base. Will mean a higher probability and strength of a counter attack. Formerly unmanned AA vehicles and kits will be armed. High visual exposure to enemy.

Action 2: Maintain CAP and ambush aircraft at first allowed opportunity within server rules. (possibly have a spotter near their main to get an initial intercept heading on their aircraft). Hit designated targets when needed or low risk passes on flags etc.

Outcome 2: Low exposure to ground forces will mean less AA manned and shooting at you. There will be less damage done to enemy ground forces, but you will be in a position of advantage when enemy aircraft respawn.

Scenario 2 (Air disadvantage + Ground Advantage): You and the Su-25 were shot down by the F-16 within 5 minutes of the round start, but your team is still winning most engagements and capturing flags. Your jet just respawned. Since your tanks and infantry have taken few losses and are moving well into enemy territory the expected AA threat is low.

Action 1: Immediately ask for intercept on enemy aircraft from SL or in team chat. Ignore CAS requests.

Outcome 1: You manage to kill their aircraft, but because you weren't available for lases meant several targets were missed. Your wingman was able to destroy several, but not before some casualties were taken.

Action 2: Ask for lasers on enemy targets. Attempt to pursue aircraft when they present themselves or a sighting is given.

Outcome 2: You manage to hit several lased targets, but fail to locate the enemy aircraft and they destroy several tanks and an infantry squad, leaving a flag exposed.

Scenario 3 (Air Advantage + Ground disadvantage): This is common on disorganized servers, or more organized ones where clan members have moved to one side or the other. You are in an F-16, have killed all enemy aircraft, but most of your anti vehicle ground forces have been destroyed, leaving some infantry caught inside bunkers, and one more at north village pinned down by armor. You have 18 minutes till the enemy aircraft spawn.

Action 1 (Low risk): Stand by at high altitude waiting for lasers. With all your armor dead, and all your infantry cut off, their anti-aircraft may fire on you unhindered. And with their jets dead, it is very possible that the previous pilots hopped into some unused Anti-Aircraft.

Outcome 1A (Low risk best case): The infantry at bunkers are all wiped out, but the ones at north village manage to hold off the enemy until your tanks respawn. They are able to lase only a few targets due to the amount of fire they take. You spend most of the time with all weapons on board.

Outcome 1B (Low risk worst case): Infantry remain pinned down, give poor lases, and fail to inform you of what/where they are. Only one hit is scored, and with nothing to stop them, MEC armor rolls into village and bunkers taking out all US forces and capturing the flags.

Action 2 (measured risk): Not wanting to risk your aircraft, but not wanting to lose the map completely, you immediately have your squad leader fall back to US outpost and wait for armor to arrive. Because all the armor is far away and mobile, he is unable to lase. You attack regardless.

Outcome 2 (measured risk most likely case): You kill a number of transport trucks and choppers that attempted to rush the flag and build a firebase with their tanks moving from north village. Since you predicted their move, your SL is ready to give enemy positions. Because their team moved so quickly so far, their AA teams don't catch up until your team reinforces. Luckily enemy reinforcements take longer to arrive giving you time to reload. The loss of infantry at bunkers and NV cause a high loss in tickets, but you did manage to prevent ticket bleed.

Action 3 (high risk): You attempt to support infantry at bunkers and village without lasers until armor respawns and reinforces for 15 minutes.

Outcome 3A (High risk, worst case): You manage to kill a firebase, but are shot down in the process by an SA-18. Enemy aircraft respawn before yours can. Because you are not alive to deal with the enemy aircraft, all your armor is killed a few minutes after respawning. Round over.

Outcome 3B (High risk, best case): After reading teamchat and your squad leader for a few minutes the locations of enemy armor become obvious. You attack, killing several tanks, and continue attacking lased targets when available, and unlased ones otherwise. Troops at north village survive until reinforcements arrive.

TL;DR version: You can attack without a laser, you can fly low, but you need to 1. know what you are doing, 2. understand the potential threats involved 3. determine if it is actually necessary or even beneficial in the situation you are in (if they have nothing but AA and infantry, let your guys deal with it). This does increase chances of being shot at when the enemy planes are down, but it also means your ground forces will take fewer casualties.

Staying high and only attacking when you have a lased target is just as bad as only flying low recklessly into AA ignoring intel and lasers. Both extremes are ultimately selfish, waste the aircraft and ultimately stem from a poor understanding of both threat and risk. There are many times when I have a spotter but he can't stick the target and I just need to take a deep breath and do some target practice.

Sometimes you just have to stick your neck out for the good of the team. No, getting shot down doesn't help, but flying around 20 minutes without hitting anything doesn't either, which is pretty common. As a rule? After killing their planes, you should go and do 10 tickets worth of damage then analyze the situation. If you're not getting locked, try and take another truck or enemy trans helo. If you get locked on climb back and reevaluate. Otherwise just use common sense.

Dev1200 · 2009-12-02, 19:21

What 117 Said :P

chrisweb89 · 2009-12-06, 04:27

The only thing here is that if I'm in the fighter and killed all of the enemy air. I would much rather let the attack jet do most of the runs and me fill in when he is reloading and be alive for when their jets respawn, than leave him all alone verses 2 jets. But like Cas said it all depends what the situation is like.

Hunt3r · 2009-12-06, 05:44

If someone is giving bad lases, the Mk82 is what you want if you're facing off armor.

Unless he is severely off, then you're screwed.

killonsight95 · 2009-12-06, 12:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by chrisweb89

The only thing here is that if I'm in the fighter and killed all of the enemy air. I would much rather let the attack jet do most of the runs and me fill in when he is reloading and be alive for when their jets respawn, than leave him all alone verses 2 jets. But like Cas said it all depends what the situation is like.

fighter jets are there to take out enemy aircraft and protect the bomber, they should be used to attack ground targets when either the bomber is reloading or is avoiding AA or enemy jets
reason: fighters are fast therefore hard to lock on also if you can fly an attack fighter well then you are msot likly more expereanced than the bomber

Wags · 2010-01-24, 06:04

Wow, I left this thread alone a long time ago. 66 posts guys, great job!

(Joke).

I agree 100% with what CAS_117 has said, and to an extent, he is saying what I was saying in the first place.

Sometimes, the situation calls for more than sitting high up in the air. I see more pilots flying high up, not helping, not risking getting shot down when no AA is in play, than pilots actually trying to help.

Aggression is key to winning fights, and many people mistake aggression for "rambo-ing" or acting foolishly. I want a pilot who can fight aggressively and smartly.

Use common sense, if you can kill it, kill it. If you can't, find another way. If you can't find another way, don't kill it, or it will kill you.

The real pilots in real conflicts never went to a pre-flight brief and said, "Oh...they have SAM's? Might as well just give up now. We're doomed. It will surely kill us." They find ways to kill the enemy, whether there are air defenses or not. Only the strategy changes when things like air defense comes into play, not the objective in mind.

As an add on to the common sense comment I made above: When I originally said that pilots should not be afraid to go low, I never said stay low through your entire flight. Use common sense. After reading through all 66 posts/replies, it would seem that the majority of you all seem to think I meant get low, and stay low. That is not the case. Fly normally, but when the opportunity to be decisive presents itself, take full advantage of that opportunity. I have not been seeing pilots take advantage of opportunity, and it's causing people to loose battles. That's why I made my original post.

Herbiie · 2010-01-24, 12:42

With the Squad Leader radio this will no longer be a problem in v0.9

ALSO if you have a commander, this sin't a problem :P

@ Kill on sight: There are no fighters, just fighter bombers. All Jets can and should engage ground targets.

Cassius · 2010-09-07, 00:38

Relaying Coords is easy, just do it. I know there is a marker system now, but I still prefer if you type out the coords or use mumble, because its more reliable and precise to tell me where your marker is. Give accurate coordinates and the 16 can do a gun run on approaching infantery.

llRvXll · 2010-09-07, 01:35

the A10 can destroy ANY target without laser target
just lauch some flares when diving, fire your 30mm at the target and you will be fine.

once i was playing on kashan, i was a rifleman, my squadleader was killed and i saw a enemy tank, i told the exactly coord of the tank for the A10, but he was too afraid to dive and use his 30mm, after some time he was shot down by a mig and didnt help our team :]

2009-12-02, 17:26	#61
ma21212 Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,508 Cambodia	Re: CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... I dont think so, first its very simple to Laze then tell him what the coords are cuz ussualy ur SL and you can put a marker on the laze and give exact pos. second its almost impossible to find the laze if you dont know were it is. third....AA! AA will rip you a new one if you fly too low hell TANKs could be just as dangerous as my gunner has shot down a few low flying jets trying to A) dumb bomb us or B) use thier MG while our tank is in full health
ma21212 Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 2,508 Cambodia

2009-12-02, 19:00	#62
CAS_117 Registered User Join Date: Mar 2007 Posts: 1,600 Tunisia	Re: CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... Flying CAS is all about probabilities, efficiency, and risk management. For the following examples assume you are in a Fighter, with an Attack Aircraft, a squad leader is lasing for you, and one other observer with any kit with binoculars. The purpose of these is to help give examples of when it is worth risking your aircraft to ground fire, when it is not, and what kind of possibilities you need to be able to infer. All of the stuff I have written is based on my personal experience, and may not reflect yours. These things might not happen exactly this way, they might not happen at all, but the idea is to be able to comprehend the available actions and the kind of outcome your decision in the cockpit makes. Scenario 1 (AA + Ground Advantage): You destroy both enemy aircraft within the first minute while your ground forces are winning (tank squad has say 13 kills and 0 deaths). You do an intel pass over bunkers at 500m to see if you are tracked. No lock is received. Action 1: Attack enemy infantry and logistics forces. Outcome 1: Possibly trap enemy team at main base. Will mean a higher probability and strength of a counter attack. Formerly unmanned AA vehicles and kits will be armed. High visual exposure to enemy. Action 2: Maintain CAP and ambush aircraft at first allowed opportunity within server rules. (possibly have a spotter near their main to get an initial intercept heading on their aircraft). Hit designated targets when needed or low risk passes on flags etc. Outcome 2: Low exposure to ground forces will mean less AA manned and shooting at you. There will be less damage done to enemy ground forces, but you will be in a position of advantage when enemy aircraft respawn. Scenario 2 (Air disadvantage + Ground Advantage): You and the Su-25 were shot down by the F-16 within 5 minutes of the round start, but your team is still winning most engagements and capturing flags. Your jet just respawned. Since your tanks and infantry have taken few losses and are moving well into enemy territory the expected AA threat is low. Action 1: Immediately ask for intercept on enemy aircraft from SL or in team chat. Ignore CAS requests. Outcome 1: You manage to kill their aircraft, but because you weren't available for lases meant several targets were missed. Your wingman was able to destroy several, but not before some casualties were taken. Action 2: Ask for lasers on enemy targets. Attempt to pursue aircraft when they present themselves or a sighting is given. Outcome 2: You manage to hit several lased targets, but fail to locate the enemy aircraft and they destroy several tanks and an infantry squad, leaving a flag exposed. Scenario 3 (Air Advantage + Ground disadvantage): This is common on disorganized servers, or more organized ones where clan members have moved to one side or the other. You are in an F-16, have killed all enemy aircraft, but most of your anti vehicle ground forces have been destroyed, leaving some infantry caught inside bunkers, and one more at north village pinned down by armor. You have 18 minutes till the enemy aircraft spawn. Action 1 (Low risk): Stand by at high altitude waiting for lasers. With all your armor dead, and all your infantry cut off, their anti-aircraft may fire on you unhindered. And with their jets dead, it is very possible that the previous pilots hopped into some unused Anti-Aircraft. Outcome 1A (Low risk best case): The infantry at bunkers are all wiped out, but the ones at north village manage to hold off the enemy until your tanks respawn. They are able to lase only a few targets due to the amount of fire they take. You spend most of the time with all weapons on board. Outcome 1B (Low risk worst case): Infantry remain pinned down, give poor lases, and fail to inform you of what/where they are. Only one hit is scored, and with nothing to stop them, MEC armor rolls into village and bunkers taking out all US forces and capturing the flags. Action 2 (measured risk): Not wanting to risk your aircraft, but not wanting to lose the map completely, you immediately have your squad leader fall back to US outpost and wait for armor to arrive. Because all the armor is far away and mobile, he is unable to lase. You attack regardless. Outcome 2 (measured risk most likely case): You kill a number of transport trucks and choppers that attempted to rush the flag and build a firebase with their tanks moving from north village. Since you predicted their move, your SL is ready to give enemy positions. Because their team moved so quickly so far, their AA teams don't catch up until your team reinforces. Luckily enemy reinforcements take longer to arrive giving you time to reload. The loss of infantry at bunkers and NV cause a high loss in tickets, but you did manage to prevent ticket bleed. Action 3 (high risk): You attempt to support infantry at bunkers and village without lasers until armor respawns and reinforces for 15 minutes. Outcome 3A (High risk, worst case): You manage to kill a firebase, but are shot down in the process by an SA-18. Enemy aircraft respawn before yours can. Because you are not alive to deal with the enemy aircraft, all your armor is killed a few minutes after respawning. Round over. Outcome 3B (High risk, best case): After reading teamchat and your squad leader for a few minutes the locations of enemy armor become obvious. You attack, killing several tanks, and continue attacking lased targets when available, and unlased ones otherwise. Troops at north village survive until reinforcements arrive. TL;DR version: You can attack without a laser, you can fly low, but you need to 1. know what you are doing, 2. understand the potential threats involved 3. determine if it is actually necessary or even beneficial in the situation you are in (if they have nothing but AA and infantry, let your guys deal with it). This does increase chances of being shot at when the enemy planes are down, but it also means your ground forces will take fewer casualties. Staying high and only attacking when you have a lased target is just as bad as only flying low recklessly into AA ignoring intel and lasers. Both extremes are ultimately selfish, waste the aircraft and ultimately stem from a poor understanding of both threat and risk. There are many times when I have a spotter but he can't stick the target and I just need to take a deep breath and do some target practice. Sometimes you just have to stick your neck out for the good of the team. No, getting shot down doesn't help, but flying around 20 minutes without hitting anything doesn't either, which is pretty common. As a rule? After killing their planes, you should go and do 10 tickets worth of damage then analyze the situation. If you're not getting locked, try and take another truck or enemy trans helo. If you get locked on climb back and reevaluate. Otherwise just use common sense.

	Last edited by CAS_117; 2009-12-02 at 19:56..

2009-12-02, 19:21	#63
Dev1200 Join Date: Nov 2008 Posts: 1,668 Canada Location: Alberta	Re: CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... What 117 Said :P

2009-12-06, 04:27	#64
chrisweb89 Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 966 Canada Location: Nova Scotia	Re: CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... The only thing here is that if I'm in the fighter and killed all of the enemy air. I would much rather let the attack jet do most of the runs and me fill in when he is reloading and be alive for when their jets respawn, than leave him all alone verses 2 jets. But like Cas said it all depends what the situation is like.

2009-12-06, 05:44	#65
Hunt3r Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 1,565 United States of America	Re: CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... If someone is giving bad lases, the Mk82 is what you want if you're facing off armor. Unless he is severely off, then you're screwed.

2010-01-24, 06:04	#67
Wags Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 144 United States of America Location: Virginia	Re: CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... Wow, I left this thread alone a long time ago. 66 posts guys, great job! (Joke). I agree 100% with what CAS_117 has said, and to an extent, he is saying what I was saying in the first place. Sometimes, the situation calls for more than sitting high up in the air. I see more pilots flying high up, not helping, not risking getting shot down when no AA is in play, than pilots actually trying to help. Aggression is key to winning fights, and many people mistake aggression for "rambo-ing" or acting foolishly. I want a pilot who can fight aggressively and smartly. Use common sense, if you can kill it, kill it. If you can't, find another way. If you can't find another way, don't kill it, or it will kill you. The real pilots in real conflicts never went to a pre-flight brief and said, "Oh...they have SAM's? Might as well just give up now. We're doomed. It will surely kill us." They find ways to kill the enemy, whether there are air defenses or not. Only the strategy changes when things like air defense comes into play, not the objective in mind. As an add on to the common sense comment I made above: When I originally said that pilots should not be afraid to go low, I never said stay low through your entire flight. Use common sense. After reading through all 66 posts/replies, it would seem that the majority of you all seem to think I meant get low, and stay low. That is not the case. Fly normally, but when the opportunity to be decisive presents itself, take full advantage of that opportunity. I have not been seeing pilots take advantage of opportunity, and it's causing people to loose battles. That's why I made my original post.

2010-01-24, 12:42	#68
Herbiie Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 2,016 United Kingdom Location: Nottingham <3	Re: CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... With the Squad Leader radio this will no longer be a problem in v0.9 ALSO if you have a commander, this sin't a problem :P @ Kill on sight: There are no fighters, just fighter bombers. All Jets can and should engage ground targets.

2010-09-07, 00:38	#69
Cassius Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,941 Italy Location: Cologne Germany	Re: CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... Relaying Coords is easy, just do it. I know there is a marker system now, but I still prefer if you type out the coords or use mumble, because its more reliable and precise to tell me where your marker is. Give accurate coordinates and the 16 can do a gun run on approaching infantery.
	\|TG\|cap_Kilgore

2010-09-07, 01:35	#70
llRvXll Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 92 Brazil Location: quinto dos infernos	Re: CAS pilots! Don't be afraid to... the A10 can destroy ANY target without laser target just lauch some flares when diving, fire your 30mm at the target and you will be fine. once i was playing on kashan, i was a rifleman, my squadleader was killed and i saw a enemy tank, i told the exactly coord of the tank for the A10, but he was too afraid to dive and use his 30mm, after some time he was shot down by a mig and didnt help our team :]