[Gameplay] v1.6.1 - Gameplay changes

[Damian_]

Originally Posted by Web_cole

Obviously the point I was making is that being in favour of lowering the skill ceiling in a competitive multiplayer game is an utterly absurd position to hold.

Obviously the point I was making is that being downed in middle of open ground where reviving you will be hard should be punished, and this change does it.

[InfantryGamer42]

Originally Posted by Bastiannn

1. "it doesn't affect skill ceiling"

While it was a cheesy mechanic, it was quite clearly part of the "game knowledge" that added to the learning curve of PR. You came to learn about it by either gaining experience or playing with experienced people from which you learn, and then you also needed brains to see the benefit in using it, as opposed to enough players either not knowing about it, either not seeing the benefit in using it, like the guy who gets offended when people pointed out that its bad that he doesn't see benefits of using it.

That is one way of viewing this change and medic kit and other kits in general. But as usual, there are many other ways we can view things in game. I would say best part of kits in PR is that they offer you enough tools to use one kit what ever way you want and think is right as long as you can be effective in support of your team. I would argue that is much important learning curve in PR, but as always we can agree to disagree.

I got offended because some people apparently can not see my point of view and then misunderstand what I said and wanted to say and then even use that wrong understanding of what I said to support there view while being unpleasant for no apparent reason. I fully understand that language is not perfect way of communication and that words and statements can be misunderstood, but that does not give right to someone that clearly misunderstood someones statement to call that guy bad, idiot or what ever word you want to say. If you do not understand someones opinion, calm down and ask for clarification. There is no need to make this thread in political "debate" where we call each other names and try to dig out dearth on each other, just to push our own opinions as only true ones.

Because some people apparently have problems to understand what I wrote and what I though by that statement, I will fully explain my point of view:

Originally Posted by InfantryGamer42

Literarly 99/100 medics do not use this mechanic at all. I used it maybe once and I still never feelt I could not go for some revive.

I actually do not see where I clearly said that I do not see benefit of patch+revive mechanic? If you ask me that is really simplistic view of my comment, but ok. While I can see how someone can misunderstand what I wrote here, still do not think it gives someone right to call names or miss use my statement(s). What I did said, or at least wanted to say is that, while I see benefit of it, I do not feel removing it whit will destroy game and gameplay, as some people claimed in post before and after mine. I provide view of the guy who never felt robbing someone from revive because I did not used this mechanic. As I clearly said, my effectiveness of reviving people in all possible situations was not impacted because of my decision to not use patch+revive mechanic, so again I do not see point of calling me bad, specially from someone that did not played whit me or saw how I play and perform as medic in game. From my personal experience of playing medic, most important factor that impacted ability of me or others to revive someone is ability of your squad to effectively cover medic. I died more times while reviving or healing someone because my squad got flanked and surprised attacked from uncovered direction, compared to almost never because I walked two extra seconds to cover from open while black-white. You can argue that if I used patch+revive mechanic, guy I revived would be able to more effectively cover me, but again, I would counterargument your opinion whit fact that you do not get flanked everytime by guy running from different direction of main attack. You can get killed from guy 200+ meters away that can see you in cover from some direction you did not though of in moment, by sniper in same situation, grenade from guy that you and others did not saw and more, pretty much there is infinite possibilities of you getting flanked, depending on map design mostly, so using patch+revive mechanic is not so much clear counter as some people would make it seems. I could also argue that being black-whit is not issue as long as medic call out targets in time, but on other hand that is asking for much more teamwork.

To be clear, I do fully understand benefit of patch+revive mechanic, but I do not consider removal of that mechanic game breaking as some people suggested. I also do not think patch+revive mechanics makes difference between good and bad medic as some people clearly consider and that is only "true" way of playing medic in PR as some people consider it. Personalty, I do not think that there is one true way of playing some kit, asset and maps (as long as they are balanced), specially because there are more factor that will impact effectiveness of specific player while playing that specific kit, asset or map. As long as that player is focused on helping team win and as long as he is effective, I do not see problem in playing kit, asset or map in different way, just because It is not "true" way of some arbitrary authority in community. From all people that wrote half long pages of there personal views of how this change will break game and gameplay, only criticism of change, for now, that I can possible agree (but not fully) whit is from Web_cole that said:

Originally Posted by Web_cole

Drag reviving (in situations where it is the only tool available) requires good judgement, skill and teamwork. But in comparison it is not exciting and not dynamic. Slowly walking backwards is not dynamic. It does not have anything like the same feeling of achievement.

Everybody else who for me, and I would say for other people, missed mark whit there game breaking criticism.

Originally Posted by Bastiannn

2. "its realistic"

This argument has been used so easily and for so many other changes just to support a point of view by people who are too lazy to or don't know how to argue, that every time it was easily shown as irelevant by pointing out to other game mechanics or how gameplay>realism.

Fully agree whit this.

Originally Posted by Bastiannn

3. "I played a few times and every time medics were helpful! medics decide to use revives now"

First, it has been pointed out already that this will not mean the people who were doing patch+revive will just start using the drag function because someone thinks they are forcing them this way.
Second, it obviously has no say in the brains of the people you encounter on public games, bad medics will remain bad medics and you won't get a revive, and decent medics will remain decent medics and will revive you if they want to. I too can say "wow I played yesterday and nobody wanted to revive me that must mean this change made medics not want to revive anymore" and you will realise how much nonsense that argument really is.

Agree, it is to early to see what real effect this change will make. But on other hand I do not think there is need to state that this change will brake game, as some people pushed.

[TheMerchantOfMenace]

Originally Posted by InfantryGamer42

So, It is funny that you and others, whit full right, jump up in arms to protest because of little toxic and harsh response by Frontliner, but then you proceed to be toxic towards me, just because I stated fact that is going against your story. I can immediately tell you that this is not way if you want to have constructive argument whit all people interested in this change.

I stated fact. As guy that played whit all possible kits in this game, I have not experienced many medics using patch+revive and I also did not felt need to use it any time I played. Still, whit my apparently "bad" medic skills, I saved my squadmates many times, got commend by my squad leaders for my work. I can and I will argue that 99/100 medics in this game do not use this mechanic at all and they, including me, do not feel like there medic performance suffers because of that. As large majority of medics do not use this mechanic in game, I do not see how will this impact larger PR gameplay? While we can maybe agree that this mechanic makes big difference between your standard medic and best ones we have, I still do not think this change will brake game as you claim.

Sorry you took it so hard, but as long as you kept insisting that the patch revives were rarely used by you, then my suggestion that you did not know how to properly make use of the Medic kit remained valid.

And no, we are not misinterpreting your argument, as per your very last post here, you are still clearly contending that 99 out of 100 Medics don't make use of the patch mechanics. I believe this could easily be proven incorrect by a very long shot

I pointed out that you were not using the kit properly because you wrote a big paragraph explaining and defending the idea that patch reviving was a virtually useless aspect of the working of the Medic kit, and I felt the need to point out that this argument of yours was completely faulty, I did not write this with intent to unfairly smear you with falsehoods, as you seem to be insinuating.

To be clear on one point here, I don't use patch revive when I assess that the area around the downed soldier is secure and that there is no need for double-speed on getting the revive back to full health (in other words, when I don't expect any enemy threat nearby). In these cases, I save the patches for when I believe they are really needed.

Secondly, your continued insistence that many Medics do not use them is completely ludicrous. Again, I don't say this to take a jab at you, it merely so happens that there is no fact to your assertions, as Woxbel correctly pointed out, your claims are strictly anecdotal. This is far from "fact". I hope you won't find that offensive, as I'm merely stating a "fact" here.

I have been using the Medic kit for years now, and I've had lots of Medics revive me with a preliminary patch. When I believe that it will be a risky revive, when I think that there might be enemy in the area and I see the Medic next to me and don't hear the patch, I ask them to use it, and explain to them the reason for it. This is not fact, this is anecdotal, and you may choose to disbelieve me if you wish.

Originally Posted by InfantryGamer42

[From my personal experience of playing medic, most important factor that impacted ability of me or others to revive someone is ability of your squad to effectively cover medic. I died more times while reviving or healing someone because my squad got flanked and surprised attacked from uncovered direction, compared to almost never because I walked two extra seconds to cover from open while black-white. You can argue that if I used patch+revive mechanic, guy I revived would be able to more effectively cover me, but again, I would counterargument your opinion whit fact that you do not get flanked everytime by guy running from different direction of main attack.

What you apparently obviously fail to realize here, and I say this not only because of what you wrote, but also because of what you never mentioned, is that whenever, and the whole time you are conducting a revive, both you and the revivee are in a VERY VULNERABLE position.

Whether or not you will admit it, at least half of all revives are during times when there is danger of enemy in the vicinity, and every half-second, maybe quarter second, of revive time is a serious threat to your squad.

"Oh, oh, oh, you are reviving at the wrong time!" Not at all, one normally will try to secure the area before beginning revives, and that is all nice and dandy when there are only a very few enemy in the area, but there are many situations whereby one doesn't have the luxury of wiping out the entire enemy squad before attempting revives, and where getting the guys up to help defend the area of control is paramount, and speed is of the essence. In other instances, getting the revives out of harm's way before the smoke starts to clear is a time-sensitive proposition that necessitates the use of patches.

In a continuation of the paragraph I quote above, you argue that you can counter-argument the patch due to snipers and other such enemy taking you out from a distance, or enemy running up on your and similar "infinite possibilities", and as such you are only re-enforcing my argument that every quarter-second that your revivee is not at 100% health and that you have a bag in your hand drastically reduces the odds of you both surviving said revive. But that, I suppose, is my opinion, so we can agree to disagree, as you would like.

Another point I forgot to mention prior is that oftentimes one needs to try to clear enemy (not necessarily all, but some) before attempting to begin revives, meaning that Web_Cole's comment is all the more true: "Time taken to get revives directly impacts how many revives you can get. If the whole process of reviving takes longer more people are going to bleed out. If each individual revive takes longer and is slower and the medic is more exposed during then less revives are viable. If the only tool you have for getting your patient safe ends up with them not having their kit then that also pushes a number of revives into a less viable band or makes going for them less desirable."

Originally Posted by Fastjack

Ok, now some feedback
I see more revives at all due to new medic feature. Before, i saw less revives because the medic knew that he's doomed if he try to revive you in the open. No bandage + medic meta or smoke helped these days.

I played yesterday on =HOG= and people who played as medic did their job like a boss. I saw atleast 4 other medics that ran around and revived everyone. No lame excuse like "cant revive you, ist to dangerous". Also, people not giving up so quick due to new medic features.

This is what i see in version 1.6 on the Servers and the teamplay is better than in Version 1.5.5.

I also noticed, when i play medic, i get less killed because i'm not forced to revive in the open.

About teamplay:

The Squad should cover the medic when he is dragging the wounded soldier, not when he start reviving.

I only play on HOG, and I have seen little of what you have just written above, so I'm really perplexed by your statements. However, I do not claim that what I am seeing (or not seeing) is because of the changes we are discussing here, I think it has more to do with the recent influx of new, inexperienced players, and to some extent, a dearth of experienced players at times. It's quite discouraging when too often I open the map, call out for Medic, and from a team of 50 players, I can't count more than 4 or 5 Medic badges on the map, and oftentimes, these Medics are all concentrated in a cluster of infantry far away at the back of the lines, where the team is secure and in zero contact, while two or three frontline squads are on their own with no Medics within 200 meters. Good grief! Anyway, I've digressed.

It's very late, and I have to get sleep, don't have time to proofread, hopefully I haven't missed words or mangled sentences too badly.

[Coalz101]

Dragging away from the general topic, but onto REALISM.

We all remember when they tried to make the ballistics more "realistic" and what happened?

Everyone went nuts because they were dying to easy. Well what can I say, you're not ment to rush in PR. It's a milsim why would you want to just run out and die?

I'd agree the ballistics system update was kinda overdone, but bringing it back to normal isn't that much better. What I can advise right now, nerf some guns (THAT OP MP5 ffs) and leave the rest how they are.






Back to the topic now.



Smoking up is still something you can do. For Example:
Your team mate dies to a random guy about 100m away and is now approaching, you toss your smoke INFRONT of his body (NOT on it! That's a massive mistake made by PR players, I've seen it done on assets aswell. If you smoke directly on a TOW, Someone like me with a sniper kit can easily predict where the tow is based on how the plume of smoke is formed and camp it even through smoke.) then you rush for the drag if you THINK you can make it to cover. If you can't drag to cover intime, just drop the patch stab him then reposition. Atleast when you do that you won't spend as much time healing him as you would have without the patch.