PR Clans The Real Question

[Acemantura]

In terms of CIA, he's gone the way of the dinosaur.

[pr|Zer0]

Originally Posted by Onil

The way I see it, the issues related to PR servers are divided into 5 parts:

1 - Each server has it own set of rules, sometimes very different. I would prefer if the PR Dev team would make some type of standards that the servers would have to follow, when if comes to rules that are related to gameplay. Admins adapting/creating rules on the spot to suit their needs or rules being enforced depending on the admins interpretation or misunderstandings is one of the main issues I see. I think that anything above a small temp ban should only be enforced the next day, after the admin has cooled off a bit and can reanalyze the situation before making his decision.

2 - Servers run by clans or communities are many times not selective enough when choosing their admins. And even if the admins screw up, friendships usually prevent the lead admin from removing their admin privileges. Same happens when it is the word of a player against the word of an admin, admins always wins, which is a problem when the issue is with/about an admin's attitude or decision. And any admin that is drunk/stoned shouldn't be allowed to use his admin privileges.

3 - No matter how right you might be, if you start insulting, you loose any right you might had. This is for both players and admins.. People don't realize this most of the times.

4 - Any issue being discussed in the clan/server private forum rarely provides an unbiased support since it isn't followed by as many community members that would help to keep the admins honest. Even if an admin made a bad decision it is more common for him not to go back on it then to change it, mostly because he doesn't want to accept/make public that he was wrong.

5 - Server switch rights and reserve slots given to clan/community members hosting the server or supporting it need to be aware of the responsibilities attached to such privileges. One of the most important ones is to keep the teams balanced (numbers and skill) and that sometimes means not playing with your clan mates. In terms of locked squads, I say it depends quite a bit on the squad role and if its a clan training or a normal pubbing session. You can always request to join a locked squad as sometimes the main reason to have it locked is to prevent kits/assets from being stolen or idiots from joining it after being kicked. Ask to join a clan locked squad and if the SL is supportive of the community, he will give a chance to anyone who wants to play within a well organized squad.

That's the way I see the mess of public playing... every server will have its issues, some more than others.

1. is on the spot, but, as far as I'm aware, most servers I played on had common sense rules; it would be nice to have standard rules on ALL servers. As for admin decision, at least on my clan, there are very specific set of rules in which a kick, temporary ban or a ban can be issued and any admin who's breaking those rules is punished, and that happens in the house and players might not be aware of that.

2/3. For insulting thingy, there are chat logs to back up your point. If you START insulting, well, you will always get removed from server. Period.

Removing admin rights because he kicked/banned someone is really not the solution, especially when most of kicks/bans are based on other players reports and honestly the admin cannot initiate an investigation on every occasion; and that is the issue: the player who's getting kicked doesn't know that the admin is removing him because someone else reported him, therefore leading him to believe that admin is abusing his rights, and also reporting is sometimes abused by players.
Admin abuse is indeed an issue, but is really hard for a pubber to prove it mainly because the admin, being clan member, is innocent until proven otherwise and is given the benefit of doubt by the clan administration team. And yes, the clan administration team are reluctant to listen to a pubber when it comes to an admin abuse/mistake, and most likely will never end with removing admin rights.
Anyone who's admining a server will be very cautious punishing a clan member and usually is ending with a warning. Me personally I saw clan members kicked, but those events are rare.
Locked clan squads are reasonable SOMETIMES: maybe those members are on a training session for example. Most of the times i saw clan members squads with regulars in it.
NwA is a good example for that.
Everything I said above is based on European servers experience. Cannot really say anything about American/Asian servers

I can tell you that: a guy joining a squad, taking a kit(whether is sniper/hat or ar) and leaving without saying even hello, is removed from server.You might say its an abuse, I say is lack of teamwork which we are trying to implement in the 64 players team. Doing that is a big NO NO.

Now, the leap I see in ordinary player maturity is huge if you compare it with what it used to be 6 years ago in PR. Being admin today is really an easy job, well, if you can manage with team switch and map votes requests which are driving me crazy.

[Human_001]

Some server has a rule where you can not spawn on Unknown (purple shield marker).
I have tried many times, when I find someone spawning on Unknown, either I join that person's squad and type to them, or just type it on team chat. The message I type to them is, "When did you start playing Project Reality?". So far I had about 3 successfull communication in this manner, and got replies on either squad chat or team chat. The message read, "about few month" "about few weeks" "only few days ago".

I'm not sure if these servers permanently bans or kicks for spawning in Unknown, but this indeed is a good way to discourage new population. I would be shocked if I was treated this way trying out new game for the first time.

Ever since I started playing Multiplayer shooter game in my mid teens, I wondered and still continue to be, why there is this 'Power Abuse' actions among server hosts? This is not only in PR, but all shooter game I ever played, or multiplayer Flight Simulator I ever flew, or forums I used. Is this just yet another example of bad online behaviors (I speculate it to be caused by peoples having bad day and find it easy to release that stress by treating others ill? Multiplied by anonymity of online?) or is it infact hosting a game server is such an effort, such as monetary burden, that they feel entitled to treat others in such way?

My rule of thumb regarding communication online is do not say things or treat others in a way you can't in face to face real life situation. With certain actions you are treated as if you have done such actions in real life and be held accountable for. But for some other actions, such as rudeness, where you will be if any never be held accountable for, some people will do things they will never do in real life.

[HunterMed]

The problem with clans I have is that many lock their squad even if they are not waiting for someone to join.

Now I understand that clans want to play with their mates but if the server is full of clan squads and not even FULL SQUADS then I am just annoyed by these clans.

I experienced this last night:


On a side note this happened later:


Then I disconnected because I had enough of clan teamwork

or this:








I dont see why clans shut out non-clan players nowadays. everybody has mumble anyway and if everybody is speaking english there is no valid reason not to play ball.

And in general: UNLOCK YOUR DAMN SQUAD.

If you are not part of a clan you might not enjoy playing on some servers because of them and this makes me sad. Of course it is not all clans, just some.

[bahlye]

There are not many servers that are not run by clans, which means that they are sometimes viewed as bias towards clan members, due to the fact that their admins are usually also members.

Its also hard to get consistency if a server has a lot of admins, makes it harder to ensure that the rules are interpreted the same way by all.

Players need to take that into account and think happy thoughts that there are Clans and Community's out here to run servers... ?..

[Chris1050]

Honestly, I am just tired of spending time on forums talking about this and nothing getting done.

Bottom line, your game is a good concept. Your growth is being limited by servers mistreating people. Theres no nice way to put it, and although privately run servers are the only place to really play the game and are basically keeping it alive, they are also seriously hindering your growth. Nobody wants to download a F2P (with the exception of bf2 still costing money) mod and be abused like people in the PR community are, and since its such a small community with so many limitations on when and where you can play having private server owners give the game a bad reputation is not a good way to go about it.

Being a former admin in some of the US server clans I can positively say its a negative influence on people interested in the game. I can also say there are 6 people I know who have eventually after playing the game for years have had so many bad interactions with authority in the game refuse to play it, and I wont be giving the game a recommendation too any friends or aquaintences at this point in time.

Although I'd love for it to progress out of this rut its in, I feel I wont support the game anymore until it climbs out of the rut its in socially. So go ahead and shun me for being fed up with this being a problem, its a game and I spend more time being frustrated by these people then I do enjoying the game itself. I would ignore the admins but they can literally bully you so its not an option.


TLR same old PR story.

[smiley]

Originally Posted by Chris1050

Honestly, I am just tired of spending time on forums talking about this and nothing getting done.

Bottom line, your game is a good concept. Your growth is being limited by servers mistreating people. Theres no nice way to put it, and although privately run servers are the only place to really play the game and are basically keeping it alive, they are also seriously hindering your growth. Nobody wants to download a F2P (with the exception of bf2 still costing money) mod and be abused like people in the PR community are, and since its such a small community with so many limitations on when and where you can play having private server owners give the game a bad reputation is not a good way to go about it.

Being a former admin in some of the US server clans I can positively say its a negative influence on people interested in the game. I can also say there are 6 people I know who have eventually after playing the game for years have had so many bad interactions with authority in the game refuse to play it, and I wont be giving the game a recommendation too any friends or aquaintences at this point in time.

Although I'd love for it to progress out of this rut its in, I feel I wont support the game anymore until it climbs out of the rut its in socially. So go ahead and shun me for being fed up with this being a problem, its a game and I spend more time being frustrated by these people then I do enjoying the game itself. I would ignore the admins but they can literally bully you so its not an option.


TLR same old PR story.

With all due respect this is just your opinion. nothing more. I could argue that I feel equally frustrated by non clan players who bitch and moan about anything and everything. People who are not in clans who spoil the game for others with their constant global chat spam. People who have been playing the mod for quite a while who selfishly break rules they are fully aware of and indeed seem to take great pleasure in doing so.
The difference is it would seem is that I realise that I would be generalising to make a point and that doesn't stand up to greater scrutiny.

While you may have made some valid points, your argument does come across to me as a tad dramatic and seeing as how you have made no attempt that I can see to offer any realistic solutions I feel compelled to say, sorry you feel that way but I think that the vast majority of people who do play the mod do not hold the same views as you or we would see on a daily basis a deluge of complaints regarding the issues that you feel are so threatening to the continued existence of the mod.

[DDS]

Originally Posted by smiley

With all due respect this is just your opinion. nothing more. I could argue that I feel equally frustrated by non clan players who bitch and moan about anything and everything. People who are not in clans who spoil the game for others with their constant global chat spam. People who have been playing the mod for quite a while who selfishly break rules they are fully aware of and indeed seem to take great pleasure in doing so.
The difference is it would seem is that I realise that I would be generalising to make a point and that doesn't stand up to greater scrutiny.

While you may have made some valid points, your argument does come across to me as a tad dramatic and seeing as how you have made no attempt that I can see to offer any realistic solutions I feel compelled to say, sorry you feel that way but I think that the vast majority of people who do play the mod do not hold the same views as you or we would see on a daily basis a deluge of complaints regarding the issues that you feel are so threatening to the continued existence of the mod.

He is right in that the servers do steer the direction of this mod. Something I have pointed out before. There has been a shift away of teamplay and hopefully TG "community" and responsible clans will help steer it back.

There is no "deluge" of complaints here because most complaints go to their respective servers forum (big black hole). And not all PR players frequent this forum for the sole purpose of commenting on clans. On the other hand I see no deluge of positive comments on the contribution of clans to PR either. Some servers recognize their responsibility to community. Lets hope we see more of that.

[smiley]

Originally Posted by DDS

He is right in that the servers do steer the direction of this mod. Something I have pointed out before. There has been a shift away of teamplay and hopefully TG "community" and responsible clans will help steer it back.

There is no "deluge" of complaints here because most complaints go to their respective servers forum (big black hole). And not all PR players frequent this forum for the sole purpose of commenting on clans. On the other hand I see no deluge of positive comments on the contribution of clans to PR either. Some servers recognize their responsibility to community. Lets hope we see more of that.

I do agree with what you are saying and to a degree with what the OP has said. However I really don't think it's as simple as it's being made out to be. It feels to me that a small section of the community is being blamed for all the woes that may befall a player.
My own personal experiences after playing the mod for nearly 6 years is that, yes sometimes server admins are heavy handed with the way they administrate their server but I never get the feeling that this is the norm.

The problem with PR as I see it is the gradual erosion of mature behaviour over the years. When I first started playing back in .2 or .3 (I can't remember which) the majority of players seemed to be in their late twenties or thirties. Now it feels like the majority are in their late teens and that I feel is where the problem lies.
Young men (lets call them that for the sake of argument) are predisposed by nature to compete with each other, and this leads to what I would describe as real primal behaviour.
All jostling and shouting to get their voices and opinions heard above the crowd with little to no regard to who it may affect.

The ongoing effect of this is that people then tend to divide themselves into smaller groups to break away from the herd and to be among like minded people, hence you have a lot more clans in PR than you did way back.
As I said at the beginning of my post, I don't disagree with the OP altogether it's just that I feel that singling out certain groups without looking at the whole picture is counter productive and somewhat misleading as to the problems of communication, teamwork and generally being able to get along in a team game.

I know lots of people in clans who are great guys and who try and play the mod the right way. I have also met lots of server admins who I would like to slap. I take people as I find them and I also believe that to affect real change takes a lot more thought and reasoning than the OP has displayed.