v1.7.4 Zakho AAS Standard

[dcm1]

The Dutch assets has a hard time dealing with MEC assets.

The Dutch only have 3x .50 cals. And none are amphibious. The Mec armor all have better guns and 2/3rd's are amphibious. I dont count the dzik jeep nor the dutch trans. Because more often than not, they're irrelevant, when it comes to combat. .30 cal jeeps cant really do shit against dutch armor, and it's hard as hell to get a kill with the guns on a trans chopper, without hovering in place and putting the whole chopper at risk.

Not having any amphibious armor, makes using the bridges much more dangerous, because mec combat engies can lock them down, and deny the dutch easy access to the southern half of the map(I know I have).

I think the biggest problem lies with the fennek. It's an armored car that's supposed to go up against it's counterpart on the other team, the BRDM. But the fennek cant swim, has only a .50 cal and it's driver can get shot out a lot easier than the brdm's. And the brdm has both a 14.5mm cannon and a coax. The fennek may have thermals, but they're not that useful when going up against enemy armor.

I believe that the dutch need two buffs.

One. Add an amphibious apc to the dutch team. The YPR/M113 would suffice.

And two, Upgrade the dutch fennek into a GMG fennek. Which would turn the fennek from a liability, Into an 'asset'. It would still be very lightly armored. But with a GMG, it could rival mec armor. It would be a powerhouse on wheels. Easily going toe to toe with the brdm, beast and scorpion too.

[[R-DEV]​rPoXoTauJIo]

the what?
NL have literally free real estate fobs over city due to choppers.
Unless MEC's actively going after them, NL side just outspamming with infantry inside the city where vehicles doesn't stand a chance.

If anything, MEC side should be buffed.

[dcm1]

Do you even play the game, to any great capacity, outside of a test environments with other devs? Because out in the wild, things are different.

Most of the fighting happens in the southern portion of the city(depending on flag layout of course). The MEC dominate that half of the map. It's hard as hell for dutch to set up a foothold, even with choppers.

The dutch cant as easily set enter the southern part of the map, as easily as the mec can counter them. Dutch choppers are loud, Mec armor can swim. The mec have a defensive advantage on the map.

I know the map is in beta and all. But you released it to the public and it's fair to provide feedback on it.

[[R-DEV]​rPoXoTauJIo]

Originally Posted by dcm1

Do you even play the game, to any great capacity, outside of a test environments with other devs? Because out in the wild, things are different.

I do, and even played a competitive match on this particular layout, which is one of reasons i consider it NL sided.
In most of public matches, aswell as trackers i see dutch loosing when not using their helicopters advantage to build FOBs and hunt for MEC ones.

Originally Posted by dcm1

Most of the fighting happens in the southern portion of the city(depending on flag layout of course).

Most of fighting happens in southern part of map simply because NL have the ability to dictate where they will be fighting, as opposed to MEC's which can't push northern side for too long. As soon as MEC loosing fobs it's a snowball for them, while for NL it's just minor inconvenience.

[Grump/Gump.45]

Originally Posted by dcm1

Do you even play the game, to any great capacity, outside of a test environments with other devs? Because out in the wild, things are different.

Most of the fighting happens in the southern portion of the city(depending on flag layout of course). The MEC dominate that half of the map. It's hard as hell for dutch to set up a foothold, even with choppers.

The dutch cant as easily set enter the southern part of the map, as easily as the mec can counter them. Dutch choppers are loud, Mec armor can swim. The mec have a defensive advantage on the map.

I know the map is in beta and all. But you released it to the public and it's fair to provide feedback on it.

You have to think of ways to manipulate and mitigate the enemy. In response to the issues of a Dutch foothold with FOBs... you have 2 active objectives most of the time, 1 attack, 1 defense.

If you put your FOBs ridiculously far back and use them, the enemy will still come for those FOBs.. Like the typical "we must find the FOBs before attacking the flag taking all day to flank". that type of squad leader. Which takes time off being attacked, lessens enemy having objective attackers or defenders. If they are not working to capture your flag 1st directly.

Then if they don't take out your FOBs you come back from them to objective.

The key here is how far the FOB should be from enemy search area. Farther away FOBs provide a wider search area, more travel time to it off objective and make them last longer. Only thing is it is a farther walk. So consider these FOBs back up FOBs then set up the closer FOBs in front of those, which will get taken down. Which then you rely on back up FOBs.

Transport squad should seed crates across the map.

Focus all strengths on defensive FOBs, all attacks must pass through defense to go attack or you will need to set up a new region to build in. No attack FOBs, just straight defensive FOBs where attacks pass through the defense flag. This way if you encounter enemy after passing through defenisve flag, you are stopping the enemy attack.

Its like defending and attacking all in one move of a plan. Putting flanking FOBs to the direct west or east of objectives, puts you out of the way of stopping the enemy. Setting up FOBs on enemy side of the map.

[dcm1]

Originally Posted by rPoXoTauJIo

I do, and even played a competitive match on this particular layout, which is one of reasons i consider it NL sided.
In most of public matches, aswell as trackers i see dutch loosing when not using their helicopters advantage to build FOBs and hunt for MEC ones.

Catering to comp players is how you kill a game(just ask the tf2 or any other community where comp player changes were implemented). Not only are comp players more skilled and teamwork oriented, they play the game in a way that normal casual everyday players dont. Weapon and Map ban lists exist for a reason in the competitive world.

Originally Posted by rPoXoTauJIo

Most of fighting happens in southern part of map simply because NL have the ability to dictate where they will be fighting, as opposed to MEC's which can't push northern side for too long. As soon as MEC loosing fobs it's a snowball for them, while for NL it's just minor inconvenience.

So you're relying on choppers to make up the difference in apc firepower? Mec armor can push north far more easily than the dutch can push south.

Most pubbies cant fly well. That's why the dutch lose. A good helicopter pilot happens once in every couple of matches nowadays. Most asset whores teamstack anyway. That's why so many matches on asset heavy maps(like kashan) end up feeling one sided.

I'm not saying to remove the choppers from the map. I'm saying you cant expect an intermediate skill asset to have properly trained and skilled operators on every round. APCs are easy to crew. Most idiots (like me) can do it.

The over reliance on choppers is detrimental to the map experience. Prove me wrong. Make a layer with no choppers or just one little chopper. Release it to the public and see how well the dutch fare then.

I still believe that the dutch armor should get some sort of buff.

[[R-DEV]​rPoXoTauJIo]

Originally Posted by dcm1

Catering to comp players is how you kill a game(just ask the tf2 or any other community where comp player changes were implemented). Not only are comp players more skilled and teamwork oriented, they play the game in a way that normal casual everyday players dont. Weapon and Map ban lists exist for a reason in the competitive world.

Precisely why i said it's one of the reasons, as i do realise comp and pub gameplay are different. However in this particular case map plays same way, which only proves the point of NL winning by logistics.
This behavior can be seen on trackers from servers, which we require to be publicly accessible, so feel free to watch how it actually plays.

Originally Posted by dcm1

Most pubbies cant fly well. That's why the dutch lose. A good helicopter pilot happens once in every couple of matches nowadays. Most asset whores teamstack anyway. That's why so many matches on asset heavy maps(like kashan) end up feeling one sided.

It goes both ways. Most pubbies can't do assets well either, rushing on apc's into AT infested city and asking for trouble. And it applies even more for logistics trucks, which doesn't have dedicated crew to care about.

Originally Posted by dcm1

So you're relying on choppers to make up the difference in apc firepower? Mec armor can push north far more easily than the dutch can push south.

The dutch don't need to push. They just deploy behind frontline, cut MEC fobs, and that's it.

[[R-CON]​Chuva_RD]

Originally Posted by dcm1

The dutch cant as easily set enter the southern part of the map, as easily as the mec can counter them.

Do you even play the game, to any great capacity, outside of a public matches?

watch the tracker and see yourself that apc doesnt matter much on zakho nl vs mec and that the most prominent features of the map is small distances between flags and NL's ability to deploy fobs via chinook. MEC has to mass on defense for grind and cancel fobs dropped from chinook.

If you cater for public games then you have to remove chinook because disorganized and inexperienced pub gamers would very very unlikely to do this two things: defend and hunt fobs in empty area

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n9l...ew?usp=sharing

[[R-COM]bad_nade]

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1n9l...ew?usp=sharing

Not saying anyhing about other trackers but this one is typical "rush the enemy first flag" tactic. It heavily favors the team who has faster logistics like Chinook and G-Wagons (which is basically a race car). The reason we see so many rush starts, and why some servers (thankfully!) won't allow it, is that it usually wins the game. The price of that kind of risky rush should be long and vulnerable supply lines, which in this case would require something like better AA for MEC.

[dcm1]

Originally Posted by rPoXoTauJIo

Precisely why i said it's one of the reasons, as i do realise comp and pub gameplay are different. However in this particular case map plays same way, which only proves the point of NL winning by logistics.
This behavior can be seen on trackers from servers, which we require to be publicly accessible, so feel free to watch how it actually plays.

Even if that's the case. Pubbie matches are more numerous and more popular. And pub matches are suffering because of the asset design choices. Making a map that forces players and funnels people into playing a certain way is not fun, only infuriating. And wanes on the player subconsciously so much.

Example: I've played muttrah and kashan so much, that I know the most optimal way to play to win, as long as my team is on point. And so does everyone else. Those maps devolve into a rush to take the best spots on the map to camp the most likely enemy routes to and from the flags. That's why I no longer play those maps, because they devolve into stalemates. There are limited flanking routes, limited ways to change up the match and keep things fresh. That's why I love Insurgency so much. It's much more dynamic and fluid. Zakho relies on choppers and armor to solve the stalemate problem. But it only works for one team; The MEC team.

Originally Posted by rPoXoTauJIo

It goes both ways. Most pubbies can't do assets well either, rushing on apc's into AT infested city and asking for trouble. And it applies even more for logistics trucks, which doesn't have dedicated crew to care about.

What projects a team's collective power better? Helis or Apcs? Depends on the map. What's easier and more forgiving if you fuck up with either? Apcs of course. The choppers have a minimum skill floor that most ground vehicles dont.

Originally Posted by rPoXoTauJIo

The dutch don't need to push. They just deploy behind frontline, cut MEC fobs, and that's it.

It feels like Zakho was never intended or designed properly to be an AAS map, because only one team has helis. As an INS map, Zakho is beautiful. Nearly perfect.

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

Do you even play the game, to any great capacity, outside of a public matches?

No, not really. I dont have access to the comp scene anymore, and have no interest in playing with competitive players at all. I play PR to relax, take my real life anger and aggression out, sometimes I get heated, but not like how comp players do.

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

watch the tracker and see yourself that apc doesnt matter much on zakho nl vs mec and that the most prominent features of the map is small distances between flags and NL's ability to deploy fobs via chinook. MEC has to mass on defense for grind and cancel fobs dropped from chinook.

APC does matter. If it didn't matter then we'd all be running around in jeeps instead.

Originally Posted by Chuva_RD

If you cater for public games then you have to remove chinook because disorganized and inexperienced pub gamers would very very unlikely to do this two things: defend and hunt fobs in empty area

I dont want to remove the choppers. I want to buff the dutch armor.

Originally Posted by bad_nade

Not saying anyhing about other trackers but this one is typical "rush the enemy first flag" tactic. It heavily favors the team who has faster logistics like Chinook and G-Wagons (which is basically a race car). The reason we see so many rush starts, and why some servers (thankfully!) won't allow it, is that it usually wins the game. The price of that kind of risky rush should be long and vulnerable supply lines, which in this case would require something like better AA for MEC.

And this is why many servers have a "DONT RUSH FIRST FLAG WITHIN 'X' MINUTES" rule. Otherwise the poorly thought out level and asset design begins to seep through and denies one team of having a good time; leading to rage quits and a dead server. Beirut being the best example of first flag rushes destroying the cadence and flow of a map.