Civilian penalties not apparent enough

[rogdozz]

I've noticed lately that more and more BLUFOR players don't even care about killing civilians, they'll just mow you down even if you're standing in the middle of the road with your hands up. This ruins some tactics (for example parking bomb car in a compound and hanging out near it as a civilian, waiting for tank to come by) and makes things less fun in general.

I think a lot of newer players just dont understand that there is a penalty for killing civilians, can we have something in the HUD that lets them know? We already have a warning after you kill a civilian but it doesn't make clear that you will actually be penalized for it

[[R-COM]ismaelassassin]

they already get a message on screen indicating that they just shot a civilian

[rogdozz]

Originally Posted by ismaelassassin

they already get a message on screen indicating that they just shot a civilian

That’s not enough, they probably think it’s just a meaningless message as a gimmick for role playing.

[InfantryGamer42]

So, message needs to be changed to mention direct penalties of killing civilans?

[lespyd]

I think he's saying something like

"You have killed a civilian. Your respawn timer has increased by X seconds, and your team's unknown cache intelligence has decreased."

[jenson]

Originally Posted by rogdozz

I've noticed lately that more and more BLUFOR players don't even care about killing civilians, they'll just mow you down even if you're standing in the middle of the road with your hands up. This ruins some tactics (for example parking bomb car in a compound and hanging out near it as a civilian, waiting for tank to come by) and makes things less fun in general.

I think a lot of newer players just dont understand that there is a penalty for killing civilians, can we have something in the HUD that lets them know? We already have a warning after you kill a civilian but it doesn't make clear that you will actually be penalized for it

From my experience, most of the people that don't care are already veteran players, mostly APC/TANK players because they know they will get the intel they need regardless of how many civis they kill

[rogdozz]

Originally Posted by lespyd

I think he's saying something like

"You have killed a civilian. Your respawn timer has increased by X seconds, and your team's unknown cache intelligence has decreased."

Yes, this is what I mean. Maybe (and I know this sounds pointless but I think it makes a difference) also make it so your kit automatically gets dropped when you kill a civilian - its not really a penalty but just a way to make you stop and think for a second, and pay attention to the message

Originally Posted by jenson

From my experience, most of the people that don't care are already veteran players, mostly APC/TANK players because they know they will get the intel they need regardless of how many civis they kill

I disagree, killing a civilian costs 10 intel, if you kill 3 of them thats 30 intel which can mean 10 more minutes where only one cache is visible and the enemy can focus defenses around 1 location.

[Grump/Gump.45]

Originally Posted by rogdozz

I've noticed lately that more and more BLUFOR players don't even care about killing civilians, they'll just mow you down even if you're standing in the middle of the road with your hands up. This ruins some tactics (for example parking bomb car in a compound and hanging out near it as a civilian, waiting for tank to come by) and makes things less fun in general.

What have I always taught? They dont kill what looks dead. Play dead near the car. Problem solved. Its great for un-armed car in smooth wall alley with full squad coming up, have car pre-pointed and wait for them to come so far in with no escape. Run them over.

I agree, the civilian kill message needs to give penalties "You just killed an un-armed civilian: 2 minutes added to spawn. Points set to -100. Team intel -5. Cannot request limited kits." We honestly need more penalties and intel needs to be -10 upon martyr. If they arrest its +10, but if we martyr its -5 intel points.

Plus the shotgun instant arrest, which is un-balanced, un-fair, un-realistic, and removes much humorous TEAMWORK potential for arresting. For both BLUFOR and INS teams at the same time this potential is removed by shotgun instant arrest alone. Stamina removal for shotguns against civilians only to assist in arrest of civilians or even armed insurgents.

Civilian cannot be fully appreciated by either team if every civilian rock throwing protestor has to scatter at sight of a shotgun and for the BLUFOR shotgun is doing all arresting work.

Answer is change shotgun to stamina removal for civilians. This could be justified several ways, either making INS mode shotgun less lethal rounds only, meaning only bean bags and door breaching rounds with no visual distinguished. OR since the buckshot kills insurgents, opens doors and arrests civilians with no visual or controlled shotgun shell ammo change, just have it be based on what you shoot at like it already is for those 3 things (doors, civilians, armed insurgents). Just make shotgun remove stamina.

WHO AGREES WITH THIS

The shotgun instant arrest effect needs to be replaced with stamina loss when it hits civilian. Only to assist cuff arrest, using teamwork. Shotgun instant arrest removes much enriching potential to the game for players on both teams. Humorous entertainment on both sides. The civilian protestors at the moment scatter at the sight of shotgun due to instant arrest, dis-continuing the fun of rock throwing as a crowd defending the cache. The BLUFOR miss out on new teamwork aspects this would provide because one man with a shotgun can just arrest every civilian in view.


A loner civilian wandering by himself is just as screwed no matter what if shotgun instant arrests or just removes stamina, they will get caught either way unless they use rope. The shotgun if made to remove stamina will become 1 of 2 things based on situation, a riot control tool for self defense against aggressive rock throwers of which you cannot kill or know which one to kill (who just healed/dropped weapon)... Or become the tool to help arrest those rock throwers.

Not everyone will get away in big crowd from stamina removal, but due to limited shotgun shells that can be loaded at a time not everyone will get stamina removed as well. Nobody will be instant arrested un-fairly anymore in this situation. Which as I said and others I suggested this to in game agree, shotgun instant removes humorous realistic teamwork potential.

Please Developers consider it. Other players help suggest this. Dragging should be allowed by civilians, but a civilian being seen using medic bag, syringe or that has to be known by individual player intelligence to have been the one to healed armed guy . Identifying the one out of the crowd by what they wearing sometimes because some civilians spawn with other kits, drop weapon and pick up somebodies old medic civilian rock kit. It gives realism. "Yeah That blue shirt, black vest, tan pants one is fair game"

Should still be able to get martyred while dragging. Harboring and giving direct aid to enemy is what makes it fair game to ROE, but they need to know who in the crowd just actually healed somebody or who just shot and them dropped their weapon to join protest. So much missing potential from shotgun instant arrest alone, there can be no semi-permanent crowd for the cache with shotgun instant arrest.

I should be able to be the one to drag armed insurgent to a different un-seen medic in cover, run back out and be thought to have healed them so I can get martyred. It adds visual depth to the game through events, similar to Grand Theft Auto 5 cops dragging each other.

[Grump/Gump.45]

Originally Posted by rogdozz

I disagree, killing a civilian costs 10 intel, if you kill 3 of them thats 30 intel which can mean 10 more minutes where only one cache is visible and the enemy can focus defenses around 1 location.

Its -5 intel points for martyr and +10 for BLUFOR being arrested at the moment, I think in the past it used to be +10 and -10. Its un-balanced and the shotgun instant arrest adds insult to this... because of every potential situation shotgun instant arrest removes. It should be a teamwork tool to remove stamina when hit with to slow down some civilians in the crowd from getting away to assist in arrest. Not for shotgun be a teamwork killer and funny situation killer in relation to civilians. It should be +10 or -10.

Proper civilian tactics within using crowds should be rewarded as teamwork tactics to prevent arrest, not punish the teamwork with shotgun instant arrest disintegrating a rock throwing crowd, not how real life works. Crowds eat bean bags, one guy goes down in pain but the crowd is there to check on him and he is good to run fast in a minute.

Its actually the only time crowding in Project Reality should be encouraged, civilians crowd an area, fighters disperse over an area. It would play into the games realism, but shotgun instant arrest doesnt allow for this teamwork. It gives the job of arresting to one breacher who can pop out of nowhere arresting at distance. Removing all the extra steps of cuffing, then removes teamwork of protesting crowds. Only possible justification for having shotgun instant arrest is "civilians on roof" but thats what the rope is for to scare them off.

We have handicapped team by weapons, the new players who want to be insurgents, 2 possible cache locations to defend with these limitations. Its worse when new players want to be civilians, they dont see the realism in potential for escape practice, they bunny hop wasting stamina, they already dont bail out of view of breachers with shotguns. Its bad enough already.

With stamina removal as a civilian you are just as screwed but you get a fair chance to be saved by snipers or dis-appear behind cover if far enough starting. Its not fair for some un-seen breacher to arrest somebody at distance when they are in the safety of a crowd. Removes all potential for teamplay on BLUFOR and the INS team. It becomes a mini-game objective in game, shoot the target with cuffs closest to your civilian. It needs to be balanced and allow for the best possible experience, remove shotgun instant arrest. Replace shotgun instant arrest with stamina loss.

[axytho]

@Grump Please don't write walls of text