The Deviation system is detrimental to gameplay and needs to be addressed

[dcm1]

I absolutely despise project reality's deviation system. It does nothing but throw off your shots and punish you for trying to defend yourself. I know that deviation is a supposed substitute for real life weapons sway. But that is no excuse for how awful it's become.

It is sometimes impossible to adequately defend yourself, even in close quarters. Unless you're right up to the enemy, point blank. Deviation makes it hard to engage even the slowest of moving targets, or respond to threats up close in an emergency. Moving your mouse even an inch, is enough to extremely throw off your aim. Where your bullets wont even hit the broad side of the barn, inside the barn. It's infuriating when you see an enemy and know you can make the shot. But because your deviation hasn't settled the bullets dance around him.

But, the biggest losers of the deviation system are Launchers and Bolt-Actions. WW2 is a pain for the germans, because the 98k is just as susceptible to deviation as it's rival the m1 garand, except the garand is semi auto and can effectively outshoot any deviation penalty, especially when upclose. The mosin and lee-enfield also suffer, they make poor self defense weapons for in the modern day, where automatics are available. Rocket Launchers are unfairly penalized by deviation, because when tracking a moving vehicle with a rocket launcher, you need more time than is usually available to get an accurate shot, before the vehicle kills you. And vehicles to my knowledge dont suffer from any deviation penalty. Grenade Launchers are already hard to use, it's near impossible to successfully hit a moving target with a launched grenade.

I believe that the deviation system either needs a complete and total rework. So that it feels less unfair. Or be completely removed, and instead rely on a minute of angle type system to add some limited element of randomness.

[Grump/Gump.45]

I explained this to Suchar on his YouTube channel and he said it was to encourage teamwork by making players less self reliant in CQC. Several issues with that especially in hip fire which to player perspective looks and feels more like point aiming. Lets keep this conversation to CQC aspects under 50 meters. Starting with improving semi-auto deviation and more realistic bump fire click speed for under 50 meters CQC.

Full auto hip fire should punish because the weapon sway, you dump your whole mag in a panic. Punished for lack of control, confidence, the fear you feel, the lack of awareness putting everything on your reaction time. I use footstep noises and everything to prepare myself.

Semi-auto should always be rewarding for all the natural reasons. Shows calmer mind, shows lack of fear in CQC, shows control and skill confidence. It already point clicks to the screen. We need semi-auto to work in situations like this as shown by UF Pro.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWiY-aN4HKQ&t=215s



Yes, the deviation makes it frustrating and lowers player retention, both for new players and long time players. The thought, the feeling of dread about close combat in this game comes from deviation.

Graphics aside(which doesn't affect most players decision making), deviation is the only thing that will make you rage quit PR next to bad un-teachable players with a language barrier, which really only creates ideal peak times to play.

Nobody has seen anything like this except here in PR, either you get used to it, you don't get used to it or other fun aspects of gameplay outweigh deviation to keep playing.

Everyone played Call of duty at least once, including me, there is a "psychological fix", like an addiction to that CQC fast paced game play. If you don't hit their dopamine button they will go play another game.

Deviation in Project Reality does not produce dopamine, it produces cortisol stress. Your weapon should make you feel better and safer, whatever those chemicals have been identified as bio-chemically. (Dopamine, cortisol, adrenaline, etc).

Another issue, players aren't always reliable for teamwork. Then people playing on high end vs low end set ups, comes back to PR being an accessable low PC spec requirement game. It should be even field for everybody, which it isn't if you graphics lag or network lag.

Yes, one on one, the easiest way to get enemy in fast movement is to spray the hip fire over them, making body contact. The deviation for weapons, like the MEC G3 and USMC/US ARMY M16/M4 platforms.

When sniping under 100 meters, your rifle can be accurate at near full deviation, its the longer distances where deviation works harder against you.

I feel for CQC at 50 meters or less, the cone of fire, the invisible ring that deviation happens within should be smaller. Semi-auto shots already go into center of screen, but say for like AKM it is not as fast as its real life charging handle movement.

Semi-auto use should be rewarding in all situations, as it is for far, but also because you are at a rate of fire disadvantage of how many rounds come out in a sweep less controlled compared to semi-auto.

Full auto setting shows fear by using this for confidence, but also naturally will make you miss more rounds. Semi-auto shows calm, confidence and control.

It would be very realistic, especially in semi-auto for slicing the pie on doorways or new angles. Semi-auto shots you can bump fire into a horizantal line fast over a wall your enemy is standing infront of while you are side stepping across the whole door pie hitting easy angles you can see from outside the door.

Versus the hard angles you can't see unless you commit to going through the door. Once you go through that door, the most advantageous indoor positions are firing from under beds, tables, chairs, narrow gaps between crates and barrels, so you really have a 1 foot x 1 foot target to hit as your full body comes through the door.

On door pie slices you come up first on no angle into door, then the narrow angle, then the 45 angle into the door then middle angle as you cross the door. At the narrow angle, you can have 1-15 degree wide perspective of the door to throw rounds in.

Aiming in moves you way too slowly to react to things, I stay on hip fire when going through doors unless I keep my sight within each new visible interior angle within the door jamb. Every new angle gets bullets to back them off or hit them if they don't move if I run out of frags.

When I decide to bring enemy into angle, which could mean I go through the door and they end up shooting from under a table or bed. Deviation is not fun here or useful. Deviation should happen at full auto or longer ranges only.

Blind fire which we cannot do, would be more accurate than Project Reality deviation as you can feel every angle of an interior room if you braced your rifle against and through a door putting in semi-auto rounds with minimal risk to you.

Players who use semi-auto should be rewarded for using it in CQC by several means, both natural and deviation wise. Being in full auto shows fear, great for garunteeing more rounds out at once but the sweeping movements while body is stationary but turning causes deviation already.

In semi-auto you naturally get 30 shots to place when it usually takes 1-4 shots to take down enemy versus using 10 shots of 3 round burst or full auto. So many rewards to it already, plus being good for deviation.

The FAL, G3, AKM, the FAMAS rifle and a bunch of others need an overhaul for under 50 meters. Everything else is fine.

[AguirreA.]

I agree, i hope this changes in a near future.

[robert357]

Yeesh, another "I don't git guting, pls nerf" thread.

I don't really want write wall of text anyway so I'll shorten this to this: it's creating tactical game instead of another "CoD without HUD" game.

To get more advantage over your enemy you need think rather than using pure skill. Don't get spotted. Wait for good opportunities to open fire. Movement. Simple thing like walking instead running when expecting enemy. These things are 101 of PR and were basically common few years ago. Now everyone is runnin' and gunnin' and complainin' how they can't 360-no-scopin'...

Grenade launchers are more powerful than AR in hands of someone who know how to use it. Same with AT and basically every other weapon with maybe exception in pistol ammunition. Deviation is creating balance. Armour damage model is basic (even primitive for modern standards) and it's easy to either destroy or deny heavy assets in PR. If you're using brain then AT is powerful and HAT is a guarantee kill.

Also vehicles suffer from "deviation" because right now there are no stabilizers so usually they need to stop to accurately hit targets on longer distances, making them easier to hit.

[Grump/Gump.45]

At times we have the weapon pointed at the enemy, it misses and we start sweeping over them hoping to hit them enough times or at all and it hits everything but the enemy. My gun is pointed front, no reason for bullets to hit high on the wall.

When you miss its allowing them to bail away or they have a weapon with better deviation by realistic nature so they kill you. Sometimes when enemy starts moving, the deviated bullets get them when they shouldn't have.

PR does need deviation like all games, but less and more realistic to where the recoil throws point of aim. G3 is worse than FAL but not by much.

I can't wait to see the DEV Blog showing a GIF of the old G3 deviation versus the new, shot placements through hip fire. It will be nothing but thank you in the Blog replies.

MEC will actually be fun to play as without everyone feeling like they have to marksmen and can't CQC. Its already like 1 mag per kill up close cause its 20 rounds.

I need to get clear cut footage of every problem weapons deviation, the most ridiculous errant bullets. It better stay center screen when not moving, but I know it doesn't always.

I want to know how in depth this deviation system is too, like if deviation lessens for the 2nd hip fire machine gun bursts because the player model is programmed to get used to it or anything of that nature where deviation is not just in the weapons.

Deviation off the hip also leads to friendly fire in CQC, confined and compressed spaces well under 50 meters without body contact to enemy.

When really in that situation even if you panic fire you wouldn't shoot through your friendly unless they stepped in front of you because there is not enough space for you both to safely react and take out the threat. At which point you should make the decision to dodge anyways.

Deviation needs to be improved in CQC for a few weapons, need many samples. Ill start making a video on it using in and out of fighting examples. Stationary, moving feet and turning body. I will highlight the ridiculous rounds going where I didn't even point. Aimed at a door, shooting at it and a round hits to the right of the screen.

Talking about the G3, FAMAS and FAL rifle. Be honest, there are some weapons you just don't like and its the deviation that makes them feel like crap. FAMAS is just ugly like all Bullpulps, but you don't see me or anybody else complaining about the QBZ.

In CQC situation, your body tenses up and braces, you stiffen your body when firing. You also die and get hit anyways, but still able to make the bullet go the direction your barrel is pointing.

If you have a full butt stock (wood/polymer) it typically gets locked inbetween the ribs and elbow in hip fire to front. Skeletal or no butt stock it tends to feel more "floatable" or manueverable.

Could start here to see what adjustments need to be made, if the DEVs find any ridiculous bullets going errant. Making the full buttstock AKM have a different quality of recoil control and deviation versus the skeletal butt stock AKM.

Ill make video of rounds going way too high or far left for where I was pointing in semi-auto. Sometimes I just back out of that fight and go "what the hell.". I shouldn't need to sweep my gun over the enemy when it is pointed or directly aimed at them. Literally every round missing because of deviation, pointed right at them ...

Gun barrel works like this ==== - - -
------------------Period is bullet------------- .
---.................----------------------------- .
Gun barrel does not work like =====< -: :

If I get good enough footage, I am reporting this as a bug. Cause I be seeing this go down and I am like "This can't be intended"...

Half the time I ask "You get him?" the reply is "I missed every shot" then we start talking about deviation in the squad, what PC we have, our ping and how every shot. Its asked so much you barely even notice cause you already know "How did I miss every shot?".

I get into a CQC fight, I start missing where I am aimed at trying to get him before he notices me. Missing makes him notice me, I seen enemy I had the jump on get me before so sometimes go back into cover, I roll my eyes and run for help trying to bring this enemy to friendlies letting them know as I run to them, "Enemy chasing me, free kill, free kill. Whew, thank you".

[saXoni]

Deviation forces players to slow down and have a think, and punishes those who decide not to. It doesn't matter how good your aim is - if you cross a road covered by the enemy you're more than likely not reaching the opposite side alive.

It is the backbone of PR and a huge part of what makes this game so unique. None of the drawn out engagements would have happened if it were only a matter of clicking heads.

[[R-COM]bad_nade]

Guns are not lazers in real life either. You'd need hand-loaded or match grade ammo and high quality gun to achieve somewhat predictable accuracy over long distances. Small variatios in bullet mass, shape, crimping, propellant mass, temperature, humidity, and gun's inherent accuracy (locking mechanism, barrel attachment and wear) etc. etc. have non-predictable, non-negligible effect on deviation that happens before bullet ever leaves gun barrel, regardless of shooters stance or other personal factors. After that there is wind.

[[R-DEV]Suchar]

The deviation is not going to change. It is one of the most fundamental features (if not the most fundamental feature) that defines PR as a heavily teamwork-oriented game. It plays an absolutely crucial role in shaping the behavior of players and shifting their mindsets towards achieving goals as a group.

If you want to read more about the reasons why it is the case, have a look at my answer to the question 70 in our October 2023 Q&A.

[dcm1]

If you really wanna see how bad PR's deviation system can get. Go play gungame. Gungame is very illustrative of PR's core gun mechanics. And just how bad they can get.

Btw. What's the worst level in gungame? When you get to the bolt-actions and bolt-action sniper rifles. It's so bad that most people switch to knife, because it's impossible to use a bolt-action in CQB. Sure there are other bad levels too. But nothing is quite as bad the bolt-action levels.

But it's not just gungame. It's all of PR. I know that PR is based on a 20 year old engine. And there's little you can do, that doesn't break the refractor 2 engine. But to have such punishing deviation, makes it impossible to enjoy the game to it's fullest extent.