v1.6.8 Recoil has destroyed gunplay

[[R-DEV]​AlonTavor]

I've yet to see proper feedback for the new recoil. Vast majority of comments are contradictory or complaining about things that were not changed. We've got a guy claiming that "C7 is terrible now!" followed by "C7 is an OP laser" in the next line. We've got people are thinking full-auto mag dumping with x4 optics is
relevant, which is exactly what we wanted to remove. My favorite is Smek thinking its some "Minority of the dev team having too much power", despite the person he's talking about being away for the last few months and had zero to do with any of this.

What's actually broken is the lack of BUIS on all weapons, which doesn't allow you to use full auto for close quarters if you've picked optics, and I'm surprised no one even mentioned this glaring issue.

something we all liked.

We have decades of people complaining about 900rpm being too strong.

Who really make this game is us, the players!

What.

[rogdozz]

Originally Posted by AlonTavor

What's actually broken is the lack of BUIS on all weapons, which doesn't allow you to use full auto for close quarters if you've picked optics, and I'm surprised no one even mentioned this glaring issue.

Please do not change this, unscoped weapons need to have an advantage in close quarters combat.

Besides that, I have to give the devs credit for not listening to forum opinions all the time because a lot of them are stupid. I think the recoil stuff is mostly fine, at this point I'm used to it. Could still use a little balancing in favor of insurgent AK weapons

[[R-CON]​Frontliner]

Originally Posted by rogdozz

Could still use a little balancing in favor of insurgent AK weapons

If we were to look at the amount of damage pumped out at a certain distance compared to the amount of recoil experienced by the shooter, the 7.62x39mm AKs are more or less perfectly nestled in-between the 5.56 and 7.62 NATO firearms respectively. The issue with insurgents is their lack of body armour, which makes both AK 47 a 2-3HKO against BluFor with BluFor also 2-3HKOing the insurgents back. Given that the recoil on any 5.56 rifle is about 25% lower than on the AK 47 give or take, what it comes down to is not the damage output, but the ease with which one weapon system allows for 2 - 3 hits in quick succession.

And yes, this is a concern for balance, IF we were to assume that Insurgents(in the Ins game mode) were to have an equal amount of resources, which they don't. INS has INFINITE tickets. The weapons/equipment are balanced in an asymmetric fashion and have been for the past 10+ years. If I'm leading Ins, I'm not expecting to roll over a BluFor squad, my sole intention is stalling until they aren't reaching the cache. And on the opposite end, if I'm unable to roll over the Insurgents with my better weaponry, I know I'm in deep shit.

Originally Posted by AlonTavor

We've got people are thinking full-auto mag dumping with x4 optics is relevant, which is exactly what we wanted to remove.

It legit didn't use to be an issue previously to magdump with a magnified 900 RPM weapon BECAUSE the code was botched. This was explained in very understandable terms by camo in the DevCast we released prior to the update, and that the fix we applied would achieve both a better balance of semi vs full auto, as well as nerfing the 900 RPMers.

Comparing a weapon like the C7 to the AK74M, if we were to take the intrinsic values of the 5.56 cartridge and compare them to the 5.45 one, we would expect 5.56 have more recoil, with the higher fire rate amplifying the recoil experienced by the shooter. However, what actually used to be the case that a weapon like C7 was firing

FASTER

while putting out

LESS RECOIL

and doing

THE SAME DAMAGE

as the AK74M. I don't care who you are and how many hours you've played, but to publicly state
that this behaviour(and the implications it has on balance) was "desired that way by DICE",
that the old behaviour was much superior and
that the ones who managed to figure out a way to fix it have no idea what they were/are doing - real talk, what is your understanding of balanced game design?

Originally Posted by UncleSmek

Problem is One person already did something that degraded the game and the devs continued to give him more influence over all of the weapons in the game.

You got something to say to me? Scared to even mention my name, are we, eh?

This has NOTHING to do with me, quite frankly whatever VOODOO MAJIK Alon and Mats came up with to fix this is much beyond what I can do. What I can do however - much to your dismay as we know - is be quite good at the game, to the point that you VERY QUICKLY went back on your "The responsible Dev has to be shit at this game" rebuttal last time and turned it into the opposite. Omegalul. Alon is incorrect however in saying that I was inactive before it was introduced. That was not the case.

And even IF I was the one responsible - the 900 RPM fix has been asked for for years, so you naming(or rather not naming) and shaming me would be utterly ineffective.
The entire team(at least as far as I can tell) was IN AGREEMENT that this fix was awesome and would be exactly that - repairing something DICE left in a broken state and never bothered nor were able to fix and caused issues during previous iterations of the game and BF2 as a whole, to an extend.

If you disagree with that, ok, let's hear how you'd go from here, because we are so not walking back on a bugfix. Just do yourself a favour and do not expect us to be receptive towards you given the previous mud-slinging.

[dcm]

@alon

I have no idea what you guys have done to the recoil. But it feels worse. I can recount several instances where the guns kicked much harder than I'm used to, than they were supposed to. Which got me killed. I'm primarily an iron sight user, because I think it's more fun. And I love fighting in close quarters. I've feel affected by these changes the most.

I never had any problem with 900rpm weapons. Except for one; the idf X95 still feels overpowered. Going toe to toe with an X95 user, there's always a greater chance that he'll win, even if you shoot first(Funny enough the idf M4A1 does not feel as op) Using a 600rpm AK74? Forget it you're dead. Using a 7.62 AK, G3, M16 or some other faster weapon, evens the odds but not by much. I can say the exact same for the dutch C7. I hate fighting against dutch C7 users as russians. All the dutch guns feel too strong, too accurate. The canadian C7 doesn't seem to have this problem.

If you want to balance 900rpm full auto weapons. I'd give them more deviation per shot in full auto or something. The M16 and M4 are limited to burst fire which curtails they're true potential.

[LiamBai]

Originally Posted by dcm

@alon

I have no idea what you guys have done to the recoil.

Maybe going back and reading Alon's posts will help you with this issue.

[Coalz101]

Originally Posted by BL4CK_DR4GON

The shooting and recoil mechanics were awesome, no need to change them at all! And yes, it is s*it now! I can't understand, all over these years we should improve the game and not change something we all liked.

Who is we?

[Outlawz7]

Originally Posted by dcm

I have no idea what you guys have done to the recoil.

https://www.realitymod.com/forum/sho...61#post2212861

The Battlefield 2 recoil systems has lots of shortcomings. Most obvious are the issues around full automatic firing and the reduction in overall recoil. This issue comes from two main factors. First when you shoot, all previous recoil is disregarded and restarts from 0. Secondly the second shot skips the first and biggest tick in the recoil animation. Both combined result in a reduction of about 50%. The next big issue is the client making false predictions for the recoil and the server constantly correcting the client. This makes recoil hard to control, especially on high latency.
Fixing these issues was no easy task and the only way to do so was to get rid of the default BF2 recoil function. Using our infrastructure to update game code on server and client, we created a new recoil function that sums up all recoil and improves heavily on the miss-predictions. With these changes all full automatic weapons now get the same recoil as using single fire. There is no more advantage for faster firing weapons.
Additionally to further improve on the single fire experience, we decreased the length of the recoil animation to make reacquiring your target easier and also allow for faster firing in single fire mode.

[dcm]

Alright, I admit it. I was wrong. I've done some testing offline, and I've been able to confirm that the guns no longer recoil differently in slow vs rapid fire. This recoil change has been so drastic that it threw off my aim. 15+ years of muscle memory betrayed me. My body and mind were still operating under the assumption of the old recoil patterns. I was unintentionally compensating for more recoil than there was and instead of letting the gun ride in full auto, I was overcompensating. I've been able to acclimate myself to most Rifles, but Pistols still feel the most off to me.

Btw why do IDF/Hamas 5.56 guns like the X95/M4/M16A1 & variants have only 29 rounds in the magazine and not 30?

[[R-DEV]​camo]

Originally Posted by dcm

Btw why do IDF/Hamas 5.56 guns like the X95/M4/M16A1 & variants have only 29 rounds in the magazine and not 30?

IDF standard practice. So they can seat the magazine on a closed bolt.
An attention to detail no one notices but is fun to have anyway.

[dcm]

Originally Posted by camo

IDF standard practice. So they can seat the magazine on a closed bolt.
An attention to detail no one notices but is fun to have anyway.

I notice. It's my job to notice little things like that.

I always felt that the idf guns were a bit fast. Depleting just that smidge faster.