Accuracy and Deviation Training

[PhoenixTril]

Hey, folks.

I'm just here to talk about how accuracy, deviation and handling of the weapons is still almost a mystery to me. For me, perceptually, luck is a much greater factor than skill when in a firefight.

Before you say,

You're just being a noob. Some people are better at the game. It happens.

Yeah, that's not helpful. I know, it happens, it happens a lot, I'm terrible at the game, whatever. Let's consider that base covered, and move on to actually constructive discussion. I've played on and off since .67. I accept the fact that some people are better at the game than I am. I want to be better, too.

I think I've watched every video and read every guide to minimizing deviation on weapons, but in game, it feels like these principles are rarely applied by anyone. Whether they are or not is irrelevant, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about relatives. It feels that way, subjectively. I accept that subjective feelings of one player are not a useful basis for game design. Moving on.

Tonight, I played for four hours, and I had only two kills during that entire time, spread over several maps. I engaged probably two or three dozen individuals, but my shots never really landed. I'm sure some of it was a combination of bad luck and bad aim, but I don't know for sure. Obviously, I'm doing something wrong, but I'm struggling to figure out what that could be after a few months of playing. That's a problem.

My point is this: I'm not griping that I'm doing something wrong, and that the game ought to be rewritten from scratch to accommodate what I think the rifle deviation ought to be. Sometimes I have great luck with the rifles and I get five or ten kills in a round. What I'm saying is that I don't know why I'm doing well or not, and the game has no mechanism for telling me or teaching me that anywhere.

A typical engagement (where I had the chance to fire on the enemy, about 70% of the time I'm just dead instantly from a mystery location, oops, oh well) would go like this. I would see a hostile standing or coming around a corner or over a ridge between twenty and fifty meters. I would crouch and raise my weapon, wait a second for the deviation to close up, and then die because the other guy started firing, accurately, much more quickly than I did. I know it was accurate because his first shot put me into black and white, and the second shot killed me. Why was he able to shoot straighter and more quickly than I could? Trial and error only take me so far.

Again, I'm not trying to turn this into a gripefest. I die a lot, and most of the time it's my own fault. So do most new players. I want to learn to shoot better and play better, and typically, games provide feedback mechanisms to train the player to perform in a certain way. I'm counting the seconds between shots, being incredibly careful, but beyond that, I have no idea if I'm performing well or not. Other players would argue that this is the beauty of PR, that it's realistic and requires more skill. I'm not here to argue about how people don't want scrubs playing 'their game'.

The game has next to no dynamic feedback on accuracy, deviation and shot performance when firing any weapon, except for the HAT's square-bracket settling meter, anywhere in the game. Dirtpuffs are it. Now, obviously, this is Project Reality and one would argue that realistically, there isn't any way for someone to determine their accuracy other than experience. But this is a computer game. I'm here to have fun, man.

In Vanilla BF2, you die and come back so often that you can rapidly figure out how your favourite gun behaves. There's a flex-reticle and extra crosshairs when you hit. You're firing your weapon an awful bloody lot, if you're in the fight. Training occurs rapidly.

In PR, it's more like 10% of that time, if that. None of these mechanics are present in PR, and nor should they be in multiplayer, that's not realistic. However, I'm in a live engagement for too short a time and too rarely for me to gather any consistent data on weapon firing characteristics through available data. Most of the time I fire my weapon only a few times in the course of a game. We struggle to understand why we're dying and why our guns seem so useless, when to experienced players it's just a matter of "*shrug* sorry, you're just not good at this. Get better." I'd love to; help me do that.

I would pick this problem out as the single greatest barrier to entry for new players in to PR, because of how basic and fundamental it is. It's a core mechanic, the behaviour of the game's firearms. I want to know, need to know, how my weapons are performing in a live fire situation, and whether I'm even coming close to the mark. Because right now, I've been trained by the game to believe that it doesn't really matter what I do, whether I hit or not isn't really up to me. I shouldn't have that impression, a game shouldn't be training me to think that, that's insane.

Ultimately, my suggestion is this: Give me a firing range where I can see my deviation and accuracy performance for different weapons, be it with a circle or a flexible reticle or something. Better yet, put it in single-player so I can practice on targets that move and shoot back. Don't change a thing to multiplayer, it's fine the way it is.

That said, I'd really like some way for me to get better at the multiplayer facet of the game that is eluding me, and I'm sure is eluding a number of other players that are new to PR. If your counterargument is that people who can't figure this out in multiplayer be told, "this isn't the game for you", that's just kind of sad.


tl;dr Please give me a way to see and understand weapon deviation and performance somewhere within the game (not in deployment), so I can shoot better when playing deployment. There is a science and a skill to wielding weapons in PR. I would enjoy the game more with tools to help me understand and learn it more quickly, beyond youtube tutorial videos.

[gazzthompson]

ill be honest, cant be fucked to read it all, but:

Project Reality: Marksmanship and Deviation Tutorial on Vimeo

Help?

[Nixy23]

You could do coop-singleplayer. There's bots there you can load in on different difficulty levels.

Just pick a map with 'inf' layout. That way there's no heavy vehicles that can rape you when you try to shoot your weapons.

[mockingbird0901]

On Ramiel there are targets in the west side of the US main. I used them when i started learning how to fly the Kiowa, figuring out how to hit them all in one run. It's nice to have something specific to aim for after all.

So as infantry, you could stand there and engage those targets as well, and see how the bullets land when you're walking, crouching, scope up or not, and all those things. The Ins have some targets on Kokan as well, so there you could test out the AK's.

Good luck to you.

[Jack Zaitsev]

Originally Posted by PhoenixTril

Hey, folks.

I'm just here to talk about how accuracy, deviation and handling of the weapons is still almost a mystery to me. For me, perceptually, luck is a much greater factor than skill when in a firefight.

Before you say,



Yeah, that's not helpful. I know, it happens, it happens a lot, I'm terrible at the game, whatever. Let's consider that base covered, and move on to actually constructive discussion. I've played on and off since .67. I accept the fact that some people are better at the game than I am. I want to be better, too.

I think I've watched every video and read every guide to minimizing deviation on weapons, but in game, it feels like these principles are rarely applied by anyone. Whether they are or not is irrelevant, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about relatives. It feels that way, subjectively. I accept that subjective feelings of one player are not a useful basis for game design. Moving on.

Tonight, I played for four hours, and I had only two kills during that entire time, spread over several maps. I engaged probably two or three dozen individuals, but my shots never really landed. I'm sure some of it was a combination of bad luck and bad aim, but I don't know for sure. Obviously, I'm doing something wrong, but I'm struggling to figure out what that could be after a few months of playing. That's a problem.

My point is this: I'm not griping that I'm doing something wrong, and that the game ought to be rewritten from scratch to accommodate what I think the rifle deviation ought to be. Sometimes I have great luck with the rifles and I get five or ten kills in a round. What I'm saying is that I don't know why I'm doing well or not, and the game has no mechanism for telling me or teaching me that anywhere.

A typical engagement (where I had the chance to fire on the enemy, about 70% of the time I'm just dead instantly from a mystery location, oops, oh well) would go like this. I would see a hostile standing or coming around a corner or over a ridge between twenty and fifty meters. I would crouch and raise my weapon, wait a second for the deviation to close up, and then die because the other guy started firing, accurately, much more quickly than I did. I know it was accurate because his first shot put me into black and white, and the second shot killed me. Why was he able to shoot straighter and more quickly than I could? Trial and error only take me so far.

Again, I'm not trying to turn this into a gripefest. I die a lot, and most of the time it's my own fault. So do most new players. I want to learn to shoot better and play better, and typically, games provide feedback mechanisms to train the player to perform in a certain way. I'm counting the seconds between shots, being incredibly careful, but beyond that, I have no idea if I'm performing well or not. Other players would argue that this is the beauty of PR, that it's realistic and requires more skill. I'm not here to argue about how people don't want scrubs playing 'their game'.

The game has next to no dynamic feedback on accuracy, deviation and shot performance when firing any weapon, except for the HAT's square-bracket settling meter, anywhere in the game. Dirtpuffs are it. Now, obviously, this is Project Reality and one would argue that realistically, there isn't any way for someone to determine their accuracy other than experience. But this is a computer game. I'm here to have fun, man.

In Vanilla BF2, you die and come back so often that you can rapidly figure out how your favourite gun behaves. There's a flex-reticle and extra crosshairs when you hit. You're firing your weapon an awful bloody lot, if you're in the fight. Training occurs rapidly.

In PR, it's more like 10% of that time, if that. None of these mechanics are present in PR, and nor should they be in multiplayer, that's not realistic. However, I'm in a live engagement for too short a time and too rarely for me to gather any consistent data on weapon firing characteristics through available data. Most of the time I fire my weapon only a few times in the course of a game. We struggle to understand why we're dying and why our guns seem so useless, when to experienced players it's just a matter of "*shrug* sorry, you're just not good at this. Get better." I'd love to; help me do that.

I would pick this problem out as the single greatest barrier to entry for new players in to PR, because of how basic and fundamental it is. It's a core mechanic, the behaviour of the game's firearms. I want to know, need to know, how my weapons are performing in a live fire situation, and whether I'm even coming close to the mark. Because right now, I've been trained by the game to believe that it doesn't really matter what I do, whether I hit or not isn't really up to me. I shouldn't have that impression, a game shouldn't be training me to think that, that's insane.

Ultimately, my suggestion is this: Give me a firing range where I can see my deviation and accuracy performance for different weapons, be it with a circle or a flexible reticle or something. Better yet, put it in single-player so I can practice on targets that move and shoot back. Don't change a thing to multiplayer, it's fine the way it is.

That said, I'd really like some way for me to get better at the multiplayer facet of the game that is eluding me, and I'm sure is eluding a number of other players that are new to PR. If your counterargument is that people who can't figure this out in multiplayer be told, "this isn't the game for you", that's just kind of sad.


tl;dr Please give me a way to see and understand weapon deviation and performance somewhere within the game (not in deployment), so I can shoot better when playing deployment. There is a science and a skill to wielding weapons in PR. I would enjoy the game more with tools to help me understand and learn it more quickly, beyond youtube tutorial videos.

Man i know exatly how you feel!

Sometimes i feel the same way and sometimes i'am on the other side of the table geting one-shot-kills alot!

But i know the deviation is anoying sometimes but i think is one of the things that make playing PR a great gaming experience, i die alot to (i realized that everytime i get a zoomed gun i gonna get into CQB and everytime i get iron sights or red-dot i get long range engagements!) and that is normal!

just go play some single-player but dont get used to it or instead of making you better you just gonna get worse comparing bots to human players is another level!

And in the end the shit is gonna hit the fan anyway so just sit down and relax while calling for a medic!

Cheers...

[Arc_Shielder]

I'm sure you're going to get more tutorial videos and suggestions that you've heard a million times (since you're a veteran). I think the only way we could ever help you is if you record yourself playing for 20 mins or so. This way we can try to assess what you're doing wrong (or right for that matter).

[AquaticPenguin]

When I play I'll only wait for the deviation if I'm in a good position to, for example if I'm in cover and haven't been spotted I can take the time to get a good shot. I generally don't count the seconds for deviation to settle, I'll just wait a short amount of time then start firing, I think focusing on counting down the deviation would just be frustrating in the end when I wouldn't hit things.

If I deem me and the enemy to have pretty equal odds of hitting each other i'll fire a few shots to dissuade them while I run for cover. There's not much point fighting them if they've spotted you first, or if they're in good cover. When I can I'll try to get close, if you throw smoke directly at them there's no way for them to advance and you can get up close or flank round and frag them.

[Shaheed]

ok first... aiming is important, but at PR Movement is also very important. I dont know if your aim is not so good or maybe your behavoir on the battlefield is wrong. To improve your aiming and lern to move and behave right or better on the battlefield i would suggest u to play defensively. Just hide and camp, wait for the enemy. U will have more time to aim you can practice to aim at moving targets and u will get the right timing. And by the time slowly u will find out to take the right routes to move over the battlefield (map by map) and dont run into camping enemys.

PS. sry for my bad english

[CallousDisregard]

I thought this was a request for some new feature to give some visual feedback on deviation ?
I'm not a coder but it seems like something that could be done in SP or CoOp to flatten the learning curve somewhat.
I understand what the OP is staying but I blame my system and spend most of my time driving trucks and shooting people in the back as a way to compensate.

[PhoenixTril]

Originally Posted by Nixy23

You could do coop-singleplayer. There's bots there you can load in on different difficulty levels.

Just pick a map with 'inf' layout. That way there's no heavy vehicles that can rape you when you try to shoot your weapons.

Yeah, I've been playing a bunch of that lately. It's good, but as another poster points out, humans behave very differently. I don't want to spend too much time playing against bots. Something that would maximize the learning that I get out of what time I play would be helpful.

Originally Posted by Jack Zaitsev

Man i know exatly how you feel!

Sometimes i feel the same way and sometimes i'am on the other side of the table geting one-shot-kills alot!

But i know the deviation is anoying sometimes but i think is one of the things that make playing PR a great gaming experience, i die alot to (i realized that everytime i get a zoomed gun i gonna get into CQB and everytime i get iron sights or red-dot i get long range engagements!) and that is normal!

just go play some single-player but dont get used to it or instead of making you better you just gonna get worse comparing bots to human players is another level!

And in the end the shit is gonna hit the fan anyway so just sit down and relax while calling for a medic!

Cheers...

This is pretty much where I'm at. Though generally if I'm in close quarters, I'm dead almost all the time. But sometimes, I have runs where I'm a madman and the weapons work spectacularly. I had a run on that one Israeli / Russian map where I killed a whole squad that was trying to assault our building. Worked out great. But other times, not so much, and I'd like to understand why.

Originally Posted by AquaticPenguin

When I play I'll only wait for the deviation if I'm in a good position to, for example if I'm in cover and haven't been spotted I can take the time to get a good shot. I generally don't count the seconds for deviation to settle, I'll just wait a short amount of time then start firing, I think focusing on counting down the deviation would just be frustrating in the end when I wouldn't hit things.

If I deem me and the enemy to have pretty equal odds of hitting each other i'll fire a few shots to dissuade them while I run for cover. There's not much point fighting them if they've spotted you first, or if they're in good cover. When I can I'll try to get close, if you throw smoke directly at them there's no way for them to advance and you can get up close or flank round and frag them.

My experience has taught me that if the enemy sees me first, and they usually do, then I'm dead. No question about it. Counting down the deviation is becoming frustrating for that exact reason, hence the reason for all this. I'd learn much better if I had something definitive. Quite often, though, I do fire a few shots to try and suppress someone that has surprised me, and they seem to ignore it and pick me off anyway, often during the time I figure that they're suppressed. I guess there's an art to shooting accurately through suppression that I haven't learned yet, either.

Originally Posted by Shaheed

ok first... aiming is important, but at PR Movement is also very important. I dont know if your aim is not so good or maybe your behavoir on the battlefield is wrong. To improve your aiming and lern to move and behave right or better on the battlefield i would suggest u to play defensively. Just hide and camp, wait for the enemy. U will have more time to aim you can practice to aim at moving targets and u will get the right timing. And by the time slowly u will find out to take the right routes to move over the battlefield (map by map) and dont run into camping enemys.

PS. sry for my bad english

My aim is usually fine, as fine as it can be. I usually don't have long to line up the target, but my hand-eye coordination is at least reasonable, even if my reflexes aren't stellar. These days, I do try to play defensively, particularly as an insurgent, but sometimes that isn't an option. I do agree though that there's an art to predicting where the enemy is going to be ahead of time to try and ambush them, that's the art of war. But my memory is godawful, and I have a hard time memorizing travel routes in complex environments for twenty or so maps. I recognize that as a failing on my part.

Originally Posted by CallousDisregard

I thought this was a request for some new feature to give some visual feedback on deviation ?
I'm not a coder but it seems like something that could be done in SP or CoOp to flatten the learning curve somewhat.
I understand what the OP is staying but I blame my system and spend most of my time driving trucks and shooting people in the back as a way to compensate.

This is pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. Something to help me learn the deviations for the different rifles in a more visual, comprehensive way. That guy in the video mentioned in the first post (which I've watched four times before even making the OP), has a nice circle that closes in for the deviation cone. I'm talking about something like that, in game, available in SP or Coop. A youtube video isn't all that useful for judging what happens during different behaviours that I personally engage in, like crouch-to-stand, stand to prone, movement, tapping keys, tracking moving targets, so on.